Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

I find the fact that other media outlets use the term 'trans identified male' to be accurately descriptive. Since it is acceptable in those places, I have asked MNHQ that we may also use it here.

Cis is used really widely and in the media, official documents, government etc. It’s very accepted in many many places. Just saying.

When has the government used the term ciswoman? Pls do elaborate

So you trying to convince me that my truth (being a woman) is false is abusive then?

We are saying that women very rarely behave in such an abusive manner toward one another. Such behaviour is very much most often expressed toward women by abusive males.

Karen Ingala Smith's recent evidence to the Women & Equalities Committee showed how this term can be used in a straightforward manner during a respectful discussion in order to bring clarity.

Yes, was so cheering to hear it used instead of "trans woman"

It’s very accepted in many many places

Im obviously missing your point

Posters have already said the6 are happy for cis to come back if other phrases are also allowed

The UK government nor any MP in any debate has used the term "cis" to denote any woman. It knows better.

We are saying that women very rarely behave in such an abusive manner toward one another. Such behaviour is very much most often expressed toward women by abusive males.

Abusive manner? Stating opinions different from your own is not abuse.

Have you not encountered many strong woman in your life? Ones that don’t cower down when in the minority in a debate? Or ones that don’t check themselves before every breath?

Have you not encountered many strong woman in your life? Ones that don’t cower down when in the minority in a debate? Or ones that don’t check themselves before every breath?

Yeah

Mumsnet is full of ‘em

Abusive manner? Stating opinions different from your own is not abuse.

Have you not encountered many strong woman in your life? Ones that don’t cower down when in the minority in a debate? Or ones that don’t check themselves before every breath?

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet - Our reasoning thus far, as most of you are no doubt aware from our guidelines posted last year, is to assume that terms focusing heavily on natal sex would not encourage transgender people to participate in a discussion - and we do want to facilitate reasoned debate.

The thing is, this is a feminist forum and the only reason we are discussing trans anything is because of the impact of the transactivists' agenda on the rights and wellbeing of women and children. If tw were not male there wouldn't be a problem so there wouldn't be a discussion here in the first place for transgender people to participate in (obviously they are welcome to join in any discussion on MN anywhere, I mean discussions 'with regards to trans rights', which are those the special rules apply to).

It is kind of necessary to focus on sex because that is the basis on which we are oppressed and as Julia Long says, we need to be able to name who is doing what to whom.

I appreciate the tremendous pressure you have been under but I hope you can see how unreasonable it is to expect a feminist forum to downplay sex.

In any case I suspect the real reason 'trans identifying male' is so distressing for some people is because the acronym is TIM which is a name associated with men and boys. I get that and I think we can avoid it easily while still maintaining clarity.

Males who identify as trans - MIT

Males with a trans identity - MTI

Have you not encountered many strong woman in your life? Ones that don’t cower down when in the minority in a debate? Or ones that don’t check themselves before every breath?
👏👏👏

Abusive manner? Stating opinions different from your own is not abuse.

Have you not encountered many strong woman in your life? Ones that don’t cower down when in the minority in a debate? Or ones that don’t check themselves before every breath?

Indeed .. a difference of opinion is a difference of opinion. However, denying fact is not a difference of opinion.

And you only need to read all the different boards, even beyond the FWR boards, to encounter such strong women.

We aren't really discussing facts though are we? We're discussing opinion.

No we are discussing facts.

Let's take it one step at a time:

Do you agree with the biological fact that no human [or other mammal for that matter] can ever change sex?

In any case I suspect the real reason 'trans identifying male' is so distressing for some people is because the acronym is TIM which is a name associated with men and boys.

Isn't that the same as saying:

I suspect the real reason 'Cis' is so distressing for some people is because it sounds like 'sissy', which is a term used to disparage people in touch with their feelings as a negative trait. Therefore, it could be avoided while still maintaining clarity by describing natal women as 'passive women', on the basis they've been handed their gender by nature and transwomen 'active women' on the basis that they've made an active effort to change their gender

whether Poe's Law is in full effect or not?

There has been no denial of facts within our exchanges, only differing opinions. You’ve said our manner isn’t ‘womanly’ enough. I want you to tell me how you think a woman should behave?

I consider your views incredibly sexist myself and wouldn’t stay silent on that.

Wholly agree with request and echo it.

I consider your views incredibly sexist myself and wouldn’t stay silent on that.

My views are based on much observational research, which only became apparent since social media became such a dominant element of communication. You are, of course, free to disagree.

No we are discussing facts.

No, the OP is asking for opinions on whether certain terms should be allowed to be used on here.

That isn't fact, that is opinion.

My views are based on much observational research, which only became apparent since social media became such a dominant element of communication. You are, of course, free to disagree.

Really? Can you link to this research?

How exactly does this research say women speak like?

Cis is used really widely and in the media, official documents, government etc. It’s very accepted in many many places. Just saying.

It is used widely but not in anything very official. For as long as it's in popular use we need to be able to discuss it and discuss what's wrong with it and we can't do that effectively if it's a banned term.

We are forever being told that cis just means our gender identity matches our sex, i.e. we are not trans.

I'm pleased Julia Long's talk has been highlighted on this thread because she absolutely nails gender:

Because if you think about it for more than a little while, and some people here have studied this for absolutely years, when we think about masculinity what we're thinking about are all the kind of behaviours, so-called attributes, maybe styles of clothing, certainly status, position, a sense of potential and possibility in terms of your power and what you can achieve. But what we're talking about is a whole collection of things which together form ritualised male domination. That is what masculinity is, it's not an individual gender identity trait, it is a set of different kinds of practices and codified behaviours and systems that ritualise male domination. By contrast, femininity is ritualised female subordination

Like fuck do I have a 'gender identity' that matches my sex!

Just saying.

Furthermore, it's an outrageous insult to any woman to imply that she identifies with her own oppression and yet the label of 'cis' is routinely applied without permission to all women who have not opted into the category of trans or queer.

The recent 4000% rise in the number of girls and young women questioning their 'gender' begins to make sense, doesn't it?

I don't want cis to be a banned term though. If someone comes on here and says to a poster 'well of course you are cis' and their post is deleted they will be far less likely to stick around for any ensuing discussion.

I’m not in favour of banning particular words, and would welcome the return of cis as a general descriptor.

I am in favour of discussions having emotional correctness, by which I mean not being needlessly offensive to others involved or being discussed.

The current TGs aren’t really working, and it creates a lot of work for mods without much gain in terms of this board being a place where trans people are at all likely to feel they can reasonably contribute, so maybe it’s time for mn to try another tack. I don’t know, but I don’t envy them trying to get it right.

Using MIT or “male who identifies as trans” when TIM is against TGs is to split hairs and game the system, and I can’t see how mn can allow MIT but not TIM. That’s just nonsensical and makes a mockery of the attempt to have TGs at all.

Interesting how people here have so much to say about possible sexism that may or may not happen at some point, but not the obvious sexism exhibited in front of them today.

Jacky I’m sorry I don’t conform to how you think a woman should behave. Although maybe now I’ve apologised for existing, I fit your criteria better. I hope you expand your circles and meet more woman who have opinions that differ from your own.

That isn't fact, that is opinion.

There can be no opinion without fact, otherwise what in earth are you opining about?

And the fact is that no human can ever change sex. So no man can ever be a woman. So the expression "transwoman" is a misnomer.

He is an autogynephilic male; a male who identifies as transitioning to what he perceives as something else. That something else is not a woman; that something else is his sexual fantasy.

Personally, my opinion of cis is that the word woman does not need a prefix. Woman has done just fine for past millennia and should continue to exist, in its current form. It accurately describes adult females. I find it bizarre that certain TRA’s demand that women use particular pronouns and ALSO accept the label cis. It’s just controlling language and I say no to that.