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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

999 replies

happydappy2 · 14/06/2019 18:07

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

OP posts:
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bloodandtears · 15/06/2019 17:49

jackyHolyOake

I'm not sure I understand your response. I am saying that women have the right to decide what constitutes a woman. Therefore claims that we should call men, who wish to be seen as women, by the names they wish has no validity. It is up to women to decide what these men should be called. This is in response to claims that we should call men who wish to identify as women by whatever they wish to be called. I am trying to argue against the fact that is possible to say transwoman and women are two completely different nouns. Transwoman implies a type of woman and that is why many women, including myself, object to this nomenclature. I am agreeing that woman is an adult human female and that the female sex is a protected characteristic in law. So I'm not sure where we are in disagreement.

JackyHolyoake · 15/06/2019 17:50

In UK, our Gender Recognition Act 2004 was created primarily to permit same-sex marriage by allowing those of the same -sex to amend the natural sex on their Birth Certificate to that of the opposite sex for the purpose of marriage.

The UK Same-Sex Marriage Act 2013 became law in 2014 thereby diminishing the requirement for anyone of the same sex to engage with any process of transition for the purpose of marriage.

DecomposingComposers · 15/06/2019 17:51

Earlywalker

Exactly. Class, ethnic origin, educational background, first language will all affect communication. I'm also quite sure that people on the autistic spectrum won't fit neatly into these sex stereotypes relating to communication either.

JackyHolyoake · 15/06/2019 17:53

bloodandtears

UK law already defines this:

man = a male of any age
woman = a female of any age

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 15/06/2019 17:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DecomposingComposers · 15/06/2019 17:55

JackyHolyoake

So you're saying that trans men and trans women (who aren't in your 75%) only transitioned, historically, because homosexual marriage was illegal? And we are meant to take your opinion seriously are we?

JackyHolyoake · 15/06/2019 17:58

And we are meant to take your opinion seriously are we?

It is not my opinion, it is legal fact.

Read the UK Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the associated Hansard Reports of the debates in House of Commons and House of Lords.

All available to the global public via the Internet.

happydappy2 · 15/06/2019 18:05

To all contributors on this thread, MNHQ have confirmed they are following it closely and will discuss the points raised next week. Thank you for the brilliantly articulated posts, fingers crossed for change.

OP posts:
Earlywalker · 15/06/2019 18:07

Homosexuality laws have been in place since 1967.

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2019 18:08

Women actively fighting against the interests of women and girls as a class is nothing new, sadly. Women deluding themselves that their course of action/beliefs are rooted in their moral superiority over the “bad” kind of women is also nothing new.

No. Brilliant post TalkingintheDark

R0wantrees · 15/06/2019 18:10

To all contributors on this thread, MNHQ have confirmed they are following it closely and will discuss the points raised next week. Thank you for the brilliantly articulated posts, fingers crossed for change.

Thats great news.
Thank you for the update.

Datun · 15/06/2019 18:13

All available to the global public via the Internet.

Iirc jacky, certain people did raise objection at the time, foreseeing some of problems we are now encountering. But they were shouted down.

Misogynistic homophobes who would rather do anything than let men marry each other.

TalkingintheDark · 15/06/2019 18:14

But what we're talking about is a whole collection of things which together form ritualised male domination. That is what masculinity is, it's not an individual gender identity trait, it is a set of different kinds of practices and codified behaviours and systems that ritualise male domination. By contrast, femininity is ritualised female subordination

Thank you so much for this from the good Dr Julia, R0wantrees.

Really illuminating.

JackyHolyoake · 15/06/2019 18:17

Iirc jacky, certain people did raise objection at the time, foreseeing some of problems we are now encountering. But they were shouted down.

Indeed. And David Lammy MP [Labour] was one of the loudest "shouters".

TalkingintheDark · 15/06/2019 18:18

One problem with trans woman / transwoman / tw is we often don't know which of the big shiny spectrum of gender identities a particular male has adopted. I imagine most of us don't really care anyway, although I appreciate it's all utterly fascinating to them.

The important thing as far as women are concerned is that males are encroaching on women's spaces, opportunities etc. rather than whether they are identifying as a woman, as non-binary, gender-queer, femme or whatever, in order to do so. E.g. Travis Alabanza identifies as non-binary but still seems to think this gives them the right to enter female spaces.

Trans identifying males / males who identify as trans covers all of them and means we don't have to worry about getting it wrong.

Very much this, PencilsInSpace. Excellent point.

PencilsInSpace · 15/06/2019 18:18

Thank you for starting this thread happy Flowers

My impression was that the rules were brought in because people like Helen Belcher and TELI were breathing down MNHQ's neck with threats of legal action. The term 'trans identifying male' / 'TIM' was banned just over a month after Helen Belcher gave evidence and attempted to have it designated as hate speech.

Things have changed since then.

Karen Ingala Smith's recent evidence to the Women & Equalities Committee showed how this term can be used in a straightforward manner during a respectful discussion in order to bring clarity.

R0wantrees · 15/06/2019 18:19

2. Shaming and Emotional Invalidation.
When abusers are unable to convince you that your truth is a false reality, or when they feel they need to add an extra dose of emotional anesthesia to keep you quiet and compliant about their transgressions, they’ll add in subtle shaming or emotional invalidation.

Interesting isn't it?

JackyHolyoake · 15/06/2019 18:22

they’ll add in subtle shaming or emotional invalidation.

Indeed RO. Your quote here is well made in this context.

TalkingintheDark · 15/06/2019 18:22

To all contributors on this thread, MNHQ have confirmed they are following it closely and will discuss the points raised next week. Thank you for the brilliantly articulated posts, fingers crossed for change.

That is great news indeed, R0 (sorry, I can’t see who posted it originally, but thank you, whoever it was!)

Eresh 🍷 your very good health!

EmpressLesbianInChair · 15/06/2019 18:23

This thread should be pinned at the top of FWR.

TalkingintheDark · 15/06/2019 18:23

Gosh, that really is interesting, R0...

JackyHolyoake · 15/06/2019 18:23

And your very good health too, Talking Wine

R0wantrees · 15/06/2019 18:25

My impression was that the rules were brought in because people like Helen Belcher and TELI were breathing down MNHQ's neck with threats of legal action. The term 'trans identifying male' / 'TIM' was banned just over a month after Helen Belcher gave evidence and attempted to have it designated as hate speech.

Things have changed since then.

May 2018 thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238618-Trans-Media-Watch-has-written-to-parliament-saying-trans-identified-male-can-be-considered-as-hate-speech-and-that-Mumsnet-users-referring-to-penises-are-being-transphobic

Janice Turner Times article today:

concludes:
"Women may end up as collateral, but then what’s new? This dismantling of safeguards by extreme trans activists is building a reluctant mass movement. Women are forming new organisations, mustering legal challenges, lobbying politicians. These are not modern Mary Whitehouses but Labour members, Greens, lesbians; progressive, humane women — including trans women — who marched against Section 28, who’d defend to the death rights of trans people to live and work free from harassment and discrimination.

They don’t want this fight, just as I don’t want to write about it, given the hideous abuse, and the risk to careers and even physical safety it engenders. They’d rather be running book clubs or the PTA or walking their dogs. But fight they must. Because their inner sirens are screaming.

A guide leader wonders why male-bodied trans teenagers are now allowed to sleep in girls’ tents without parents being told, and is sacked. The NSPCC tells a concerned parent: “Should the child or adult identity as female then they are female and there are no safeguarding concerns.” Note “are” female. Thus sex, a protected characteristic under the Equality Act, is erased, and with it all thought for girls. There is no hope of compromise, perhaps “third spaces” where privacy and identity can be balanced: nothing less than total capitulation will do.

But women see what is happening. We know what battering down our boundaries with insults and threats can allow in. Not, to be clear, from trans people, but potential abusive chancers looking for open doors. Peter Bright, a left-wing US tech writer, argued endlessly with feminists on Twitter about gender self-ID. As a proud trans ally, he decried “TERF [trans-exclusionary radical feminist] fear-mongering about public restrooms” as “fact free drivel”, asking “Is that a great disaster? That a girl sees a penis?” Following an FBI sting in which he believed he was grooming a mother into allowing him to have sex with her children, Bright has confessed to discussing “engaging in sexual activity with minors”.

I read every official report into Jimmy Savile’s abuse in hospitals. What struck me was how he easily bought off the men: gave the porters TVs, took sherry with the consultants. He intimidated the young women. The only people who ever barred his way were older nurses. They could not be fooled. Nor are we now. We will not be bullied into surrendering our safeguards and seeing our liberation in porn."
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/children-won-t-find-role-models-in-playboy-ztfjq0t7t?shareToken=a80ba7e9bcd3850e593572a530746785

DecomposingComposers · 15/06/2019 18:25

2. Shaming and Emotional Invalidation.
When abusers are unable to convince you that your truth is a false reality, or when they feel they need to add an extra dose of emotional anesthesia to keep you quiet and compliant about their transgressions, they’ll add in subtle shaming or emotional invalidation

So you trying to convince me that my truth (being a woman) is false is abusive then?

JackyHolyoake · 15/06/2019 18:26

#LetsEndThisGaslighting