Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

I don't want cis to be a banned term though. If someone comes on here and says to a poster 'well of course you are cis' and their post is deleted they will be far less likely to stick around for any ensuing discussion.

Who wants those with opposing views to stick around for a discussion though? Certainly not most of the posters on here. Only posters in complete agreement are welcome.

I hope you expand your circles and meet more woman who have opinions that differ from your own.

Indeed .. that is the very purpose of being on Mumsnet. It is how we make arguments with each other that is the point.

there can be no opinion without fact

Ermm. Do you know what those two words mean?

There can be no opinion without fact, otherwise what in earth are you opining about?

What? Of course there can be opinion without fact do you prefer tea or coffee what facts are there that could answer that question? It is only opinion.

He is an autogynephilic male; a male who identifies as transitioning to what he perceives as something else. That something else is not a woman; that something else is his sexual fantasy.

Again, the article that you yourself quoted says that this is not true so why do you constantly say this? That article clearly identified different categories of which AGP is only one. Why are you persisting in spouting this rubbish?

When has the government used the term ciswoman? Pls do elaborate

Lmgtfy.....
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/722314/GEO-LGBT-Survey-Report.pdf

Cisgender, rather than ciswoman specifically, and they explicitly state that it is used for clarity.

It is how we make arguments with each other that is the point.

Please do explain how women are 'supposed' to argue with each other.

I suspect the real reason 'Cis' is so distressing for some people is because it sounds like 'sissy', which is a term used to disparage people in touch with their feelings as a negative trait.

I don’t know what world you’re living in Gronky but in the world I inhabit and have inhabited for over half a century as a girl and then a woman, the word “sissy” is exclusively applied to boys and men, male people. It’s used to disparage males who are “in touch with their feelings” because under rigid gender codes, that’s supposed to be the preserve of females.

It’s used to disparage boys and men for being effeminate, and perceived as weak, in a world that says “proper” boys and men don’t act that way, and that to “descend” to the level of a woman/girl is demeaning for a male.

I’m literally astonished that you could think women could ever be distressed by a word for its likeness to “sissy”, a word that is never used directly against us; a word that actually cannot be used directly against us.

It makes me wonder what kind of experiences you have had to imagine for a second that any woman could feel this.

Perhaps the rejection of the prefix 'cis' is because it demands that we acknowledge the prefix 'trans'.

Since no human can ever change sex, why on earth would anyone accept the prefix 'trans'?

Only posters in complete agreement are welcome.

So very true. Lately it’s got more explicit.

TalkingintheDark, I'm dreadfully sorry to have wasted your time composing that response, please look up Poe's Law.

Perhaps the rejection of the prefix 'cis' is because it demands that we acknowledge the prefix 'trans

The ‘trans’ in transwoman is not a prefix of the noun, the word is a noun in its entirety with a different meaning.

Personally, my opinion of cis is that the word woman does not need a prefix. Woman has done just fine for past millennia and should continue to exist, in its current form. It accurately describes adult females.

Yes. To label most of us 'cis' makes it easier to assert that tw and 'cis' women are both just different types of woman.

The next step on from this argument is to say that 'cis' women have more privilege than tw because we are all women but they are also trans.

The next step on from that argument is that 'cis' women oppress tw.

And here we are.

I find it bizarre that certain TRA’s demand that women use particular pronouns and ALSO accept the label cis. It’s just controlling language and I say no to that.

Don't get too clever, just swallow the rohypnol.

The "trans" in "transwoman" indicates an autogynephilic male. A male with his own sexual fantasy of what is a woman.

[Remember that HSTS refer to themselves as transsexuals, or they used to, before same-sex marriage became law.]

What are you talking about? Maybe you need to go off and do some more reading.

Don't get too clever, just swallow the rohypnol.

Ha ha! Yes: Mermaids training.

Have you seen this:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3613168-Data-breaches-by-Mermaids-exposed-in-the-Times

Policewoman, oarswoman, washerwoman, kinswoman.

What sex are these people?

The "trans" in "transwoman" indicates an autogynephilic male. A male with his own sexual fantasy

Incorrect, as your big on facts. I’ll repeat again the dictionary definition.

Transwoman - a male to female transsexual.

transsexual - a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex.

A transwoman by definition paraphrased means ‘a male who emotionally and psychologically feels they are female’

It does not state they become or are woman, merely that they feel they are woman.

Remember that HSTS refer to themselves as transsexuals, or they used to, before same-sex marriage became law

Do you really believe that gay men don’t ever get gender dysphoria and transition? I personally know two transwoman who are married (to men), shall I let them know they missed the memo?

How you are referring to a study done 40 years ago that said some people within the study had a fetish to mean that 75% of transwoman have fetishes and the other 25% don’t exist anymore because same sex marriage exists - I’m just a bit unsure as to if your posts are serious or if you’re actually here to damage the GC cause.

Actually I don't blame any woman who doesn't like being called 'cis' on the grounds that it sounds like 'sissy'. There are two ways that word is used currently:

1. as a way to put down boys who are not being masculine enough

2. a genre of porn / kink lifestyle

Both usages rely on the idea that to be female is humiliating and degrading.

Thinking about it I'm not sure 'cis' is 100 miles from that.

I was prepared to find a way to avoid TIM if that was specifically offensive but if it's no different to MTI then I'll use TIM wherever it's allowed because I'm used to it so it's less effort.

I'm not prepared to stop pointing out when people are male.

I don't agree that anyone should be compelled to use particular words (which isn't happening here). Equally, I don't agree that anyone should use terms that another person, or group of people, have said they find offensive

So, that sounds like a stalemate then?

Do you think the trans community will ever stop stop using 'Cis', seriously? What do they say when you post on trans forums about this issue?

It does not state they become or are woman, merely that they feel they are woman.

You make my point for me, thank you.

A "transwoman" is a male who has a fantasy of what is a woman.

And you therefore decry the mantra that "transwomen are women"; so, again, thank you.

*I’m objecting to people’s refusal to use correct language because they don’t like it8

There is no 'correct' language, though - unless you are a member of the specific group or community that uses or ascribes to it.

I don't post on trans forums. I post on MN because I am interested in many of the subjects discussed here, not only trans issues.

If I saw someone using the term cis on here I would comment on it because I know that it isn't allowed. I would take a dim view if they persisted using it despite being told that people found it offensive.

do you prefer tea or coffee what facts are there that could answer that question? It is only opinion.

Yes. Your opinion of preference can only be based on the fact of tea and the fact of coffee. Two separate sets of drink with a clear shared meaning on each one.

Clarity of shared meaning is what language is about. When language is intentionally shifted to blur classification and meaning it is to change and control that shared meaning. Orwell had all this nailed decades ago. So did the many feminist linguists who wrote about how women were controlled by language.

How you are referring to a study done 40 years ago that said some people within the study had a fetish to mean that 75% of transwoman have fetishes and the other 25% don’t exist anymore because same sex marriage exists - I’m just a bit unsure as to if your posts are serious or if you’re actually here to damage the GC cause.

To what study do you refer please?

Blanchard retired in 2010. Bailey is still in practice as a psychologist.

I said that 75% are AGP [that is a paraphilic disorder, according to DSM 5].

The 25% who are HSTS is a number that is likely to decrease in those countries where same-sex marriage is legal, since the imperative to "change sex" is now non-existent.

And you therefore decry the mantra that "transwomen are women"; so, again, thank you.
Where did I say that? I have never said that. I have always said that transwoman are transwoman and should be treated as such. I have never said TWAW. Please do not put words in my mouth.