Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

She said an attempt Rowan, doesn’t mean it was successful.

I’m objecting to people’s refusal to use correct language because they don’t like it.

If a transgender person refused to call woman ‘woman’ I would object.

If a woman refused to call a transwoman ‘transwoman’. I would object.

By definition, the words do not conflict anymore than saying ‘wo’ is a prefix of man to create woman. It’s incorrect.

Transwoman does not mean they have become a woman, by definition.

I couldn’t care less what words are banned or not though.

Managing approx 10% of the posts on a thread is indicative that a person has not being silenced.

Because I'm stubborn and I won't be told to shut up by anyone, particularly when it's something that I feel deeply about. But other people might not feel able to stand up against bullying behaviour so they would be silenced. That isn't on. I'm very happy to debate points but simply resorting to yelling "man" isn't debating. It's just an attempt to shut down. Kind of like when we used to copy everything someone said when we were kids.

I would be happy to have all words allowed. All of them.

Me too.

I don't like the term T**F but if someone uses it, it's a good opportunity to explain why it's such a dangerous slur.

I don't like the term C*S but if someone uses it, it's a good opportunity to explain why it's inaccurate and harmful to women.

I miss being able to say 'trans identifying male' because it's accurate and non-obfuscatory.

One problem with trans woman / transwoman / tw is we often don't know which of the big shiny spectrum of gender identities a particular male has adopted. I imagine most of us don't really care anyway, although I appreciate it's all utterly fascinating to them.

The important thing as far as women are concerned is that males are encroaching on women's spaces, opportunities etc. rather than whether they are identifying as a woman, as non-binary, gender-queer, femme or whatever, in order to do so. E.g. Travis Alabanza identifies as non-binary but still seems to think this gives them the right to enter female spaces.

Trans identifying males / males who identify as trans covers all of them and means we don't have to worry about getting it wrong.

It's a yes from me too..

The issue with MTF and FTM is that they imply that it is possible to transition from male to female and vice versa, which it obviously isn't

My preference would be for Trans Identifying Male / Female (TIF /TIM) or FTT / MTT (Female / Male To Trans)

Another aye to unbanning all the terms from me.

I won’t use any form of woman or any word that includes “woman” to refer to a person I know to be male.

The attempt to push this into our lexicon is a form of male oppression of females, and any females who support it are enabling and promoting that form of male oppression.

But of course females enabling and promoting male oppression of females is very common under patriarchy. Like the women who perform FGM, having suffered it themselves, to give probably the most blindingly obvious and heartbreaking example.

Or the women who argued against the suffragettes back before we had the vote.

Or the women who argued against “women’s lib” in the 70’s and were proud of considering themselves subordinate to their “MCP” [Male Chauvinist Pig] husbands.

Or the women in countries like Saudi Arabia who enforce religious clothing rules for other women.

Women actively fighting against the interests of women and girls as a class is nothing new, sadly. Women deluding themselves that their course of action/beliefs are rooted in their moral superiority over the “bad” kind of women is also nothing new.

DecomposingComposers, I do believe there's a certain subset of MNers who try their best to dictate what a woman is and is not allowed to think, in an attempt to turn a debate into a self congratulatory back patting session. I applaud your dedication and patience in remaining polite and respectful while disagreeing with them.

The important thing as far as women are concerned is that males are encroaching on women's spaces, opportunities etc. rather than whether they are identifying as a woman, as non-binary, gender-queer, femme or whatever, in order to do so. E.g. Travis Alabanza identifies as non-binary but still seems to think this gives them the right to enter female spaces.

This is especially important with regards male violence, abuse & coercive control as it impacts women & children.

Mumsnet campaign 'Walking On Eggshells'

"Coercive control is domestic abuse. Controlling or coercive behaviour was criminalised in 2015 - but it still affects hundreds of thousands of women in the UK.

Mumsnet, Women's Aid and Surrey Police have joined together to help raise awareness of the dangers of coercive control.

A new survey found 38% of Mumsnet users have suffered some form domestic abuse. "

TalkingintheDark

You have nailed it! Brava

I agree ItsAllGoingToBeFine wrt to FTM and MTF. I absolutely hate the use of “female” in any way at all for people who are male. It’s all part of the sleight of hand, the Rohypnol effect.

Lang, I think you have it! MTF trans and FTM trans is an informative, clear, and concise solution

That's what I have used since the rules came in.

And without accurate language, this could mean insisting a woman is a man, a man is a woman, a woman is a woman or a man is a man.

Score!

Exactly Datun.

I do believe there's a certain subset of MNers who try their best to dictate what a woman is and is not allowed to think,

Tommyrot! It is about how women communicate / interact with each other which, if you observe closely, is very different from how men communicate / interact with women.

But other people might not feel able to stand up against bullying behaviour so they would be silenced. That isn't on. I'm very happy to debate points but simply resorting to yelling "man" isn't debating. It's just an attempt to shut down. Kind of like when we used to copy everything someone said when we were kids.

Nobody has yelled 'man'

False accusations and allegations are often indicative of admissions.
Its interesting what people reveal.

I do believe there's a certain subset of MNers who try their best to dictate what a woman is and is not allowed to think,

Well yes possibly but the people being accused of this definitely do not so....

its a false allegation /accusation & may be an admission.

@Earlywalker* I couldn’t care less what words are banned or not though.*

What are you doing on this thread then?

Restriction of terms on FWR to be removed and usual forum rules about civility and goadiness to be deemed sufficient.

Yay.

False accusations and allegations are often indicative of admissions.
Its interesting what people reveal.

Thank you, RO

Yay from me too. To paraphrase Barracker, if you say “The transwomen want to use the women’s toilets” it sounds very different from “The men who identify as trans want to use the women’s toilets.”

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party here (been working) but I just wanted to respond to the argument that woman and transwoman are two totally different nouns. The prefix 'wo' on man may have originally meant some type of man but for several hundred years people have been clear on the difference - both types of human but different sexes. The trans in transwoman however does suggest a crossing over to woman just as transatlantic means a crossing over the atlantic. So the 'woman' in transwoman does convey a type of woman rather than a different category of people (or a category of male people). The dictionary definition supports this on recognising that this is about men feeling they are women. I think therefore that women have the right to have an opinion on this. But I'm all for freedom of speech so long as it isn't telling me to die in a grease fire etc.

It is about how women communicate / interact with each other which, if you observe closely, is very different from how men communicate / interact with women.

You remind me of my project leader who, after reading the first draft of my dissertation, handed it back to me the next day and proclaimed "its biggest shortcoming is that it's obvious a women wrote this" (this was in the mid 80s).

The dictionary definition supports this on recognising that this is about men feeling they are women.

UK law disagrees:

it defines the two sexes thus:

man = a male of any age
woman = a female of any age

Gronky

Thank you.

Do you have the link to the first half of Julia's presentation please?

Jacky I only transcribed the second half because the first half relies heavily on the slides and wouldn't make much sense without them.