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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Potential Systemic Safeguarding failures in NSPCC / Childline illustrated by appointment & ending of relationship with Munroe Bergdorf Thread 2

476 replies

R0wantrees · 13/06/2019 13:05

link to previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605120-Munroe-Childline-s-first-LGBT-campaigner

NSPCC statement by CEO Peter Wanless
www.nspcc.org.uk/what-we-do/news-opinion/munroe-bergdorf

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3609218-Hi-from-Safe-Schools-Alliance-UK

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32
R0wantrees · 13/06/2019 21:21

This was Sarah Ditum's article in response:
NewStatesman
25 OCTOBER 2016
'How society is failing transgender children
In the wake of the cancellation of a public debate on this subject, one of the speakers shares her view on where society’s approach to gender nonconformity is going wrong.'

(extract)
"In August this year, several UK councils issued guidance to schools on accommodating female pupils who wear binders. A binder is a constricting undergarment for the upper body: what it binds are the breasts, pressing them down to a flatness that the wearer feels is appropriate to their self-perception as masculine or gender-neutral. According to Cornwall Council, the binder is “very important to [the wearer’s] psychological wellbeing.” But binders have unwelcome physical side-effects too, including “breathing difficulties, skeletal problems and fainting.” Lancashire Council’s advice urges teachers to “monitor [wearers] carefully during physical activities and in hot weather. It may be necessary to subtly offer more breaks.”

When the NSPCC invited me to participate in a discussion on the subject “is society letting down transgender children?” (part of its Dare to Debate series), those guidelines were one of the first things I thought of. They’re written in accordance with the overriding principle of gender identity politics, which is that affirmation is all. Any bodily harms incurred count for little compared to the trauma believed to be inflicted by a “mismatch” between appearance and identity. It’s a doctrine that insists we’ve moved beyond the tyranny of physical sex and social pressure, and into a realm of pure selfhood where all must be able to live in accordance with their own inherent being." (continues)

concludes:
If we’re not able to address these issues, then we’re manifestly failing children. But addressing them is incredibly difficult: practitioners who privately mention their doubts about current approaches to gender noncomformity are afraid to ask questions publicly, anticipating personal attacks and the loss of their jobs.

They’re not wrong to do so. After announcing the Dare to Debate event, the NSPCC was put under sustained pressure, I was persistently abused, and following the withdrawal of the other panelist, the charity cancelled the event. Previous installments in the series have looked at child sexualisation, foetal alcohol syndrome, and asked whether the investigation of child sexual abuse has tipped into “hysteria”, but apparently it would be just too daring to talk about gender. Doctrine so bitterly defended that it must even be protected from good-faith debate is a kind of restrictive garment for the intellect. Wearing it can ease our mental pangs. But the damage it does besides is very real."
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2016/10/how-society-failing-transgender-children

recent twitter comment :

"Some sympathy with Bergdorf. In 2016, the NSPCC asked me to take part in an event called "Dare to Debate" on the subject "is society letting down transgender children". I told them I was happy to participate but it would be contentious & they needed a plan. Of course! they said.

So they announced it, and it was contentious, and they did not have a plan. The other participant pulled out. I called and emailed the NSPCC to see what was going on and work out what we could do: no answer, and then a few hours later, the whole thing is off.

But the real issue is, big charities are often risk averse (dare to debate lol), & they won't communicate their decision making when they're protecting the institution

It sucked for me then, because I was left being libeled and attacked for a debate that the org I was supporting wouldn't even back. It sucks for everyone catching blame now because the NSPCC is stonewalling on its reasons.

Anyway, the NSPCC is not institutionally trans-activisty or institutionally gender-critical, it is institutionally a massive coward, the end"
twitter.com/sarahditum/status/1138457871535005698

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RedToothBrush · 13/06/2019 21:38

In otherwords don't try and help the NSPCC on contentious issues cos you could get left up shit creek because they don't do their homework or due diligence because they don't know how to use google or research on twitter.

Bravo.

Yet they have a whole policy about 'online safety' which none of their employees seem to be able to grasp that online safety includes checking out the people you as a protection agency are working with, and how setting up controversial debates might have the effect of backfiring - and in the process end up harming kids either directly or indirectly.

Protecting rights is all about a balancing act and an understanding of the delicate nature of this and how they are fragile.

I read an interesting thread on rights which was retweeted this morning (original from 2017). Its about terrorism, but one tweet in it was particularly striking and the point is relevant to all rights.

İyad el-Baghdadi | إياد البغدادي @iyad_elbaghdadi
Second: Human rights doesn't mean "niceness" or "kindness" or "sit them down and tickle them until they confess". Human rights is a rigorous legal and moral paradigm, as well as a formidable legal structure.

Full thread for anyone who is interested. You can substitute the word terrorist for other words relating to rights such as bigots and the thread still holds relevance and good context

Thus I have to conclude that the NSPCC does not understand safeguarding and neither does it understand the concept of rights either. Or its responsibilities to anyone who goes near it in any capacity.

Unless they wank in a staff toilet and stick evidence of it online (which sails close to legal wind to put it mildly).

Does the charity exist for anyone but its own staff first?

ChiaraRimini · 13/06/2019 21:55

Is the reason the MSM aren't interested that the story has already been broken on Twitter and here?
Genuine question

GColdtimer · 13/06/2019 22:02

Is the reason the MSM aren't interested that the story has already been broken on Twitter and here?

No, they had it ALL on Saturday before it hit SM.

ThePurported · 13/06/2019 22:02

Just catching up with the Bergdorf saga and I've had to start over several times as I can't quite believe what I'm reading.
I don't understand why this is not being dealt with by someone with the proper competence at NSPCC - why is it being left to whoever runs their Twitter account? What the hell is going on in that organisation - have they not read the Oxfam reports?
And all the current and ex Childline counsellors who are objecting to Bergdorf's 'sacking' and defending the employee who filmed himself wanking on NSPCC's premises - are they mad?

Here's Faiza Shaheen, Labour PPC for Chingford & Woodford Green:
"I used to be a volunteer Childline counsellor. So disappointed with your behaviour towards @ MunroeBergdorf Why would any child questioning their gender identity come to you now? A lot of work will needs to be done to rebuild the trust with the LGBTQ+ community."

I just cannot fathom this. There must be massive gaps in the safeguarding training given to Childline counsellors if they can't see the problem. It makes you wonder about the standard of counselling kids get when they call Childline about gender identity issues.
And are they just going to let the man who brings his kink to work have a 'dignified exit' so he can carry on working in the charity sector? Or ask him to 'stop or be a hell of a lot more discrete', like they did at Oxfam with employees who used prostitutes?
JFC.

RedToothBrush · 13/06/2019 22:04

Cos the Mass Media is about influencing voting and generating sales? Just speculating here but:

Being seen as LGBT friendly is seen as essential to winning votes by just about every party today.

And children don't vote. And you are less likely to if you've had a chaotic childhood, for various socio-economic reasons.

Also, do you sell newspapers on the back of sexual abuse stories? There has to be a sexy (nasty pun fully intended) angle to make it work.

Also. Lawyers are expensive. So you've got to offset the cost of any lawyers versus the income you might generate from clicks or paper sales.

RedToothBrush · 13/06/2019 22:06

And isn't there a GE on the horizon in the near future...?

Backyard99 · 13/06/2019 22:11

Here’s a very Last Century bit of heresy.

We could suggest the NSPCC employ only mothers as statistically they are far less likely to sexualise their role, bring their sexuality to work on a blazing truck of lights, behave sexually and inappropriately in the workplace and actually centre the safeguarding of children before any other concern of ego or penis.

I have been profoundly shocked this week. And I have been around the block a few times.

How are these people being defended? Is sexuality and sexual rights the sole focus of so many people in the media that the emperor is standing stark bollock naked and all the pointing people are being vilified instead?

HumberElla · 13/06/2019 22:14

So then anyone using LGBT as a shield for nefarious behaviour is absolutely bullet proof.

No journalist will bother with you, so no media reporting, public will remain oblivious and those that do cotton on will be shouted down by the popular woke voices.

As long as you can squeeze under the LGBT umbrella or make sure you’re an ally, you are teflon coated.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 13/06/2019 22:14

Well, all of this is very depressing. I now don't feel happy with my child attending any NSPCC talks / initiatives or supporting any NSPCC fundraiser efforts. I'm not looking forward to any discussions with the Head about why I'm taking my child out for any NSPCC stuff (although it's probably better that he know, he would certainly not be ok with any of this either, the safeguarding at my child's school is very good).

They're not even close to following their own guidelines here. I can't believe they're defending this borderline criminal behaviour that breaches so many safeguarding rules it's unbelievable. The man made porn and put it on the internet and linked it to the NSPCC, which is a charity children might search for on the internet. Ugh.

Datun · 13/06/2019 22:18

Also, do you sell newspapers on the back of sexual abuse stories? There has to be a sexy (nasty pun fully intended) angle to make it work.

I would have thought even a side view of that photo would have been salacious enough to sell any newspaper.

RedToothBrush · 13/06/2019 22:35

I don't know Datun. My feeling is it almost has to be 'the right kind' of child protection story.

Here you don't actually have any abuse happening. Safeguarding is a rather dull subject in its beaucratic and preventative form.

And the possible conflation of LGBT and abuse is a hot potato. If you run a story on 'potential' safeguarding issue, it becomes a risk that people read it as if someone failing a safeguarding check is a sexual predator (when the reality might be far from that). No one wants to risk vigilantism as a side effect of that.

Remember no one wanted to go near the scandal with Asian grooming gangs and 'girls who deserved it' for a very long time?

And now the subject is all too often used a dogwhistle and there isn't too much talk of how grooming gangs exist across the country and have different ethnic make ups according to area. The affected abused girls concerned even now aren't the focus.

This story might have some 'great visuals to accompany it', but 'is it the right story for our newspaper and its image and reputation' ?

Hope that makes sense.

NeurotrashWarrior · 13/06/2019 22:39

Remember no one wanted to go near the scandal with Asian grooming gangs and 'girls who deserved it' for a very long time?

Yes it's absolutely this.,

LangCleg · 13/06/2019 22:42

Remember no one wanted to go near the scandal with Asian grooming gangs and 'girls who deserved it' for a very long time?

It took twenty years from the first concerns raised by care home managers for the first group conviction to happen. Twenty years.

RedToothBrush · 13/06/2019 22:47

Isn't that what Lisa said? We have at least 2 decades of shit show fallout over child protection to come in wave after wave?

Datun · 13/06/2019 22:47

You make sense, red.

Especially

And the possible conflation of LGBT and abuse is a hot potato. If you run a story on 'potential' safeguarding issue, it becomes a risk that people read it as if someone failing a safeguarding check is a sexual predator (when the reality might be far from that). No one wants to risk vigilantism as a side effect of that.

Given the reaction of Peter Wanless, I doubt this problem is an isolated incident tho.

RedToothBrush · 13/06/2019 22:50

Datun, and that is why this needs to not be forgotten. They can wait for this to die down. But it most certainly won't be forgotten and it will be pursued long term until answers ARE given.

NeurotrashWarrior · 13/06/2019 23:03

It will take 10 years of de transitioned women for this to begin to be taken seriously.

We are only just near to the start of women who were part of ROGD coming out the other side. Another 5 for the girls who are a part of the 4000% increase in Female GD to start to detransition.

So I reckon 10-15 years before we sit in safeguarding meetings following the statutory rules and regulations in place to safeguard errors in judgement and avoid irreversible affirmative care.

NeurotrashWarrior · 13/06/2019 23:06

The biggest problem is there's so many people blocking discussion and avoiding talking about all this that it's possible it will be longer than 20 years.

nonsenceagain · 13/06/2019 23:06

Am I missing something or is the NSPCC yet to reply? The ‘we won’t tolerate bullying of our staff’ message was put out before the worst of this broke on sm I think. I hope this is because they’re talking to lawyers and not because they actually think they can ride this out.

LangCleg · 13/06/2019 23:13

Isn't that what Lisa said? We have at least 2 decades of shit show fallout over child protection to come in wave after wave?

Yes. The bloody woman is Cassandra!

And, I'm sorry to say, we're currently in the genesis of the next double-decade cycle.

TeamUnicorn · 13/06/2019 23:16

I too am totally shocked at the defence of key players in this saga. To point out the folly of the appointment and individuals behaviour is totally being met with cries of transphobia and that people are just being really mean. Throw in a good bit of 'whataboutery' and all that is left is a poor little victim. I don't get it, people have been villified and sacked for a lot less but no one starts jumping to their defence.

Strange times.

R0wantrees · 13/06/2019 23:24

Isn't that what Lisa said? We have at least 2 decades of shit show fallout over child protection to come in wave after wave?

Yes. The bloody woman is Cassandra!

June 2018
Lisa Muggeridge comment:
'Famous on Mumsnet'
"Dear Mumsnet, is because the bubble has burst on trans rights activism. We are at the stage of narcissistic abuse, which is what this is, where the dissonance folds in waves. #peaktrans is a one way street and each wave will force a reconstruction in people’s understanding of power, gender, sex, reality of inequality, which coincides with Universal Credit failure, social care failure, child abuse enquiry and other major institutional redefinition which require that understanding of the complex relationship between power, sex, motherhood and inequality you all understand. UK is a tipping point, Canada is ready to go. Most of the institutions I am discussing grew from the ground up, this was their first cycle, that understanding never got to the policy making level before. I checked. Think tanks, oxford, Cambridge, LSE, NONE are aware of the complex interconnected nature of systems you exemplify. You cant abdicate the responsibility for these systems even if you can erode the institution you can only generate crisis, which is what austerity just did. It wasnt deliberate it was reflex, reflexes are born of identity and have to challenged, we havent had a crisis big enough in the twentieth century to synthesis that understanding. THIS is that crisis. Brexit is the size of the framework we have for it so buckle your seatbelts. I have been relentlessly abused on twitter and targeted by political parties and people with major amounts of power. Cos they weren’t used to mixing with someone like me. It’s flattering really cos am just a mum. But we are about to consolidate rights for women and girls and accept the changes women made in the twentieth century so we can move on through the twenty first... "continues

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3284251-Lisa-Muggeridge-Suspended-by-Twitter-and-Quoting-her-breaches-MN-Guidelines?pg=1

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Goosefoot · 13/06/2019 23:31

Gosh, she says Canada is ready to go. I am not so sure about that. I'd be interested in what makes her think its the case.

R0wantrees · 13/06/2019 23:36

2018 Lisa Muggeridge Comment:
(extract with bad words redacted)

"I am going to do a youtube video a week or so. The abuse and harassment I received because am a mum on twitter was just an existing media and politics culture demonstrating they had always been oblivious to the existence of people like me and the rule of law itself. Is why Labour are so * and is why I recorded it here. We are the context that changed around these people and social media added a social dimension to political communication and exposed what they would do to protect that ignorance. Worry ye not ladies I’ve known this for ages and ages and ages.

You need to not be afraid and understand this is the context of speaking up. You are winning. Will win and what is at stake is not trans rights. Although these people have possibly binned trans rights for a generation or more. Any rights lost now wont be regained for a long time. They are fighting reality cos they are and all they have done is shown they are not safe to have access to spaces of safety from male violence. Which is what this debate was. A safeguarding debate requested by trans people with the granting of legal rights and a clarification on the context in which gender recognition sits. Check out FairPlay fr women’s research. THAT is where gender recognition sits in a wider safeguarding context.

A safeguarding debate where they said lesbians should be forced to do dick, kids be taught not to have boundaries, and that adult males must have access to children and women without question, must have their identity validated without question and women must unlearn the ability to spot an abusive predatory narcissist wanker and they’ll bully, abuse, threaten, assault, and try to erase women who mention the context.

They were never ever going to succeed this way in a month of fucking Sundays."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3284251-Lisa-Muggeridge-Suspended-by-Twitter-and-Quoting-her-breaches-MN-Guidelines?pg=5

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