Feminism and breastfeeding

[SnuggyBuggy]

Just curious as to people's opinions here as I haven't seen these two things discussed a lot. Is promoting breastfeeding compatible with being a feminist?

TBH I do actually remember going to some (NCT) groups in the early weeks and there only being one bottle feeding mum in the room, that was unusual for being a group for pregnant women and babies under 3/4 months though, you tend to see more bottles at groups for older babies and/or less milk feeding in general as they tend to get tied to sleep times and so it could easily feel like you're the only one feeding a certain way.

Well it's what she told me. I mean I guess she could have been making it up but I can't think why she would do that.

I'm not comfortable with the number of comments questioning the reality of women's reported experiences. In another context it would be called gaslighting.

Snuggly- you said your own recollection of your experience could well not be wholly accurate!

If we’re talking about this in terms of politics and philosophy, we really need to know what’s going on in the real world. There are plenty of other threads for support and validation. It is a fact that it is statistically unlikely for a woman in the UK to actually be the only bottle feeder in a baby group, while it is psychologically very likely for her to feel that way.

Sorry I can't quote, but I find the women should have autonomy over their bodies, but if you can't/don't want to breastfeed you should feel bad about questionable practices (orchestrated by men no doubt) in the third world by supporting formula companies a bit weird.

I had some blurry parts of my time in hospital with DD which probably meant I took the BF promotion as more aggressive than maybe I should of. My emotions were very real and traumatic births aren't rare so I'm sure I'm not the only one who went through that. Breastfeeding can be very empowering but this certainly wasn't.

I had no memory issues when talking to the lady about being the only FF mum in our group and coming to terms with it.

“I had no memory issues when talking to the lady about being the only FF mum in our group and coming to terms with it.”
I didn’t say you did.

But I see this thread is going the way all feeding threads do. A shame- I thought there was a chance we could talk about this as a population/political/philosophical issue, not an individual experience one. But it seems not.

I think individual experience can be relevant in a discussion like this. Breastfeeding is important so it's worth getting this right. It's promotion should be done in a way that empowers women to have faith in their breastfeeding not that makes people feel crap if they unexpectedly have to use formula temporarily or longer term.

Poor treatment of postnatal women is endemic and likely a factor in low BF rates. Hospitals and HCPs have a responsibility to encourage breastfeeding in a way that actually helps women and yet not all departments really support it and many HCPs are poorly trained on breastfeeding.

Sorry I can't quote

That’s because what you wrote was not said here. What was said was, we should be able to talk about the devastating impact of the unethical practices of formula companies, without those that use formula protesting doing so is making them feel bad.

Do you see the difference between that and what you wrote?

I do think personal experiences are relevant to a political discussion (the personal is political!)
I guess the problem is that it's hard for people not to get sensitive and/or defensive - especially if others are questioning them in a way that could be perceived as critical.

My perception is that some of the posts on page 10 are. Which is absolutely fine of course as it's a discussion, and my personal opinion on the matter is as above. Doesn't mean it's the right one, it's just how I feel about it, but again let's tell women how they're allowed to feel.

Breastfeeding made me feel like a mammal. I am a mammal.

The socialised feeding of the offspring of humans (ie humans of different classes) has a long history. Wet nurses are really no different to formula feeding if you see both as an alternative to maternal feeding for those that can afford it. May be done for necessity as the child would otherwise not thrive but may be done for other reasons. Uncomfortable.

I find that feminism recognised that I am a mammal but that socialism (predicated on a male norm) wanted to see me as a worker (in a capitalist framework). Humanity exists out-with the existing economic framework.

My personal experience is recent and I’ve felt very lucky with the interactions I’ve had, bar one. I was asked at my booking appointment how I’d choose to feed, said I planned to bf. Not sure why or if she wrote it down anywhere. We didn’t do nct. I watched some videos on YouTube which proved very useful and looked up some basic info on how often newborns feed, positions etc. Also googled the nearest breastfeeding group though I haven’t used it.

I had my baby by CS under a GA so we were both very dopey for a while but I put her on a couple of hours after she was born. Kept trying with help to hold her up as I was on oxygen and couldn’t move well, had help to express colostrum. On the ward I was asked how she was feeding, said little but I was keeping at it, they said she looked well, nappies fine, not to worry. A couple of days later we were still in and they noted she wasn’t feeding often so did I want extra help and sent a lactation consultant within half an hour who was amazing. DD was sleeping most of the time due to all the drugs I’d had but the consultant got her going better. The day after we got home the midwife watched a feed and gave me some pointers which helped, milk still wasn’t in but she said it all seemed on track and to call or text her anytime with questions. Because my milk was so delayed the next midwife panicked about weight loss and we ended up in a&e then paeds overnight which was anything but pleasant and not really relevant but the feeding “support” was utter bull shit and we carried on in spite of them. The difference between all the maternity services and paeds was striking.

Since then things have been grand and the first visiting midwife has checked in by text several times to wish us well.

I’ve felt supported throughout by kindness and professionalism. We’ve been lucky to have no real problems but it took a bit to get things going. The lactation consultant was a woman called Geraldine who put her arms around my sweaty shoulders while I tried to rouse my tiny exhausted baby and told me I was doing a great job. I’ll never forget her. But she and her colleagues were there for everyone and all the women on the busy ward in our huge hospital have that support on hand. So I don’t know if that’s unusual or if things have improved but I can only speak for what happened to me this year.

I don’t remember any posters at all though there probably were some around.

A friend who had her baby a few years ago in a different hospital said she wanted to bf and was struggling in hospital, they sent her someone to help who she took against and said she decided to stop bf on principle because “the woman was a witch”. I think in that case her DP was against it from the start as no one in his family had ever bf and he thought it was gross/icky/unnatural etc but I felt sad for her when she later said she wished she’d persisted though I don’t know what help can be offered to adequately counter an actively unsupportive partner.

In terms of support for ff I don’t know how that is here. If I’d wanted to give her a bottle in hospital I hope they’d have helped as I wouldn’t have had a clue. But I suppose for me the support for wanting to bf was telling me it would happen and not to stress about it, not to offer a bottle when it was taking a while but the baby seemed well and to offer an expert who gave me the time I needed.

Big contrast to my grandmother’s day when they’d weigh the baby after a feed and if they weren’t heavier straight away to tell you it wasn’t working...

Also - the hormones. These are not excreted when you formula feed.

There was a thread on here a while back where women discussed how to buy ethical formula, I think a pp mentioned a uk based company upthread. Several said they'd never support nestle or pay for nestle-owned companies formula. So even if you formula feed you do have some choices (though it makes life more difficult).

Lack of support/knowledge isn’t just a U.K. issue. I know of someone recently who had her baby in an EU country and was instructed by the hospital to weigh her baby before and after a breastfeed to see how much milk the baby was taking . Needless to say, breastfeeding didn’t work out for them.

Tbf, weighing a baby before and after a bf to measure milk consumption is a common technique in the US and elsewhere. It's even part of IBCLC training there, whereas it isn't here due to (I believe) differences in opinion about its efficacy relative to difficulty. For instance, you need a specialist scale, and you can't conclude anything from one weighed feed... but if done properly for all feeds in a 24 hour period, it's an accurate picture of milk consumed, and can be helpful in investigating why a baby isn't gain weight at the expected rate, etc.

It's still crazy to expect a new mother to do it at home as a matter of course, though.

I wasn't meaning to be gaslighting or not believing folk who said that they were the only one bottle feeding at a baby group. It's just the complete opposite to my own experience and I think it perhaps highlights that breastfeeding is not just a feminist issue but also a class issue. Most of the women I know with babies have an idea that "breast is best" or that that's what mothers are supposed to do but they don't really see it as something that they will do. I don't think they feel it's for them. I think they see "Breast is best" as a campaign aimed at middle class women

I had to fight to get weighed feeds with DS2 in hospital (not UK) as they were adamant I needed to top him up, it was frustrating because there was absolutely nothing wrong with him, we were just separated for 36 hours and obviously they couldn't leave him to starve during that time. But it really felt like an assault when they were telling me in a pleased voice that he'd taken 50ml. It made me think how on earth was I supposed to meet that demand they had created. I worried about those little diagrams they show you where a newborn's stomach is the size of a cherry stone, etc.

The weighing was useful but I agree based on a one off they would have been far less so. And this was with a very accurate digital scale, and I had to be very careful not to change the blanket, remove or add clothing (even a hat), make sure his various monitoring things stayed on the scale, weigh before nappy changing, etc. I often had to let him feed on and off for over an hour to see any significant increase and they were really discouraging me from doing that, worrying that he would use too much energy BF and negate the calories. They didn't watch me every second so I just did it anyway. I let him sleep while attached because I know that is one way newborns conserve energy while feeding. But if I'd been less confident that I was right I probably wouldn't have known just to keep feeding regardless of their time scales, or about how to do weighed feeds accurately, or that some feeds with no gains/very little are also fine.

Kendamil aren't angels. They break the code at about the same rate as others although I do believe their breaches are out of ignorance rather than malicious intent and from what I've seen of them, I think they believe they have a superior product rather than just fighting for market share because profit.

When I was buying formula though, one thing that shocked me was I found it absolutely impossible to find one without palm oil.

I wanted to come back to an earlier point because it's been bothering me more than most threads do - the point about mums dealing with night wakings when BF. Without wanting to make it "all about me" I actually think co-sleeping and breastfeeding is a really important tool to have in your mothering "kit", and I feel quite strongly about not dissuading people from doing this, if indeed it works for them. But I haven't found this in any way precludes DH from being able to deal with night wakings or settle the baby to sleep. True enough, I do deal with 95% of night wakings, and I'd be reluctant to leave DS2 with DH overnight at this point, and perhaps that's a sign things aren't really equal (though it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make since I love the convenience and intimacy of cosleeping). But when he wakes during the evening, we've always taken turns there, since the goal is to settle him back to sleep in a cot. During the night ie when I want to actually sleep, when it's a simple, just-feeding-required kind of wake up, I deal with it because it's incredibly easy for me to do so and I can snooze while feeding (safely). On the occasion that DS2 does one of his middle of the night "I'm wide awake" things for an hour or so, that again we've always taken turns with. Naps, we can both settle if needed. And when DH knows I've had a night where DS2 absolutely needed to be in full bodily contact with me, he tends to take the morning shift.

Weighed pre and post feeds is considered poor practice. Topping up because ‘there isn’t enough milk’ is poor practice too.
If there is a belief there may be underproduction then the only reasonable solution is to feed more frequently.

I failed at breastfeeding. Does that mean I'm a failed feminist? Goady post, op.

bellinisurge try reading the thread, you’ve missed the point entirely

“I failed at breastfeeding. Does that mean I'm a failed feminist? Goady post, op.“

So basically saying there is nothing political (small and big p political) about breastfeeding ans no feminist perspective to discuss. Goady post