Boundaries and Allies

[DancingRaven]

I came across a post on Twitter which included what appears as a screenshot from a WhatsApp conversation with a gender critical ally. The image is attached for reference.

It is so disappointing to see this, are women's boundaries just amusing to everyone? How can we work together when our sex based rights are just 'politics'?

But Glinner believes TWAW, so is hypocritical.

But very few public figures understand (or care?) how TWAW can impact on women, eg those in refuges or prisons who have been harmed. Graham does, and says something

Really? I see him saying be nice to the TW who elevate my voice and if any of you see them as having no place in feminism then you are very nasty, spiteful women who I will work to cast out of the inner sanctum as I am the judge of what is acceptable in feminism or not.

He is divisive and uses his popularity as a stick to beat committed and passionate women with. And the sycophants and dick-panderers hang on to his every word whilst casting out women for wrongthink.

Doesn't look much like feminism to me.

Yes some trans women are women and Glinner gets to decide who is a woman. It is Glinner forcing Debbie and Kristina onto women.

If your going to have principles you need to stick to them or you just look like a shallow opportunist.

Thanks DancingRaven I'd seen some of that on twitter up to the point Hayton was appointed in charge, very disappointed money didn't get to VRR and bewildered by DH popping up in the middle, guess there aren't enough women in the world that could have done such a difficult and responsible role [sarcasm] ] hadn't ever heard it referred to as mattress gate but stopped reading anything about it at the point women became irrelevant other than contributing funds.

It all went to VRR thankfully but Glinner had to pay a share that he and DH had promised to the scammer, so he actually lost more money, and the scammer has disappeared off twitter and probably laughing

Oh good, glad it went to VRR in the end.

Breton I’m not on Twitter so hadn’t seen all that from Graham. I just see him as a bloke sharing his views (somewhat belligerently at times). I didn’t know there was an inner sanctum to be cast from!

@2BthatUnnoticed
The word handmaiden seems to have been completely coopted. It was a useful term that feminists needed when trying to analyze and understand why certain women would behave the way they did. It was a kind and understanding term because it understood that women don't shaft other women because they're evil or stupid, but because of the patriarchal structures that bind them.

Many a time I want to say if it wasn't for these male pleasing, woman hating women , feminism could have advanced.

So the question is at what point is a woman completely responsible for her woman hating behavior, or how much of it is down to social pressure, naivety, or even fear.

I think the word handmaiden still has its place, and if we stop using it we lose a tool of analysis.

What is wrong though, is men accusing women of being handmaidens. He's just parroting terms he has a vague understanding of.

I do reserve the right to criticize liberal feminists because their politics shore up and support male power. But I concede that they behave the way they do because there is a heavy propaganda machine convincing women of those politics. Hence the word handmaiden

Astra as I'm concerned the grouping around DH and KH can crack on doing their own thing, as I started to learn more about the issues I was glad that some TW could see women's point of view but I've become more educated on the issues and moved on in my views.

Stella's documentary crystallised my uneasiness with DH.

Women's movements should be led by and centred on women. One of the reasons I support Jean H is she is uncompromising on this.

Ffs 'As far' not 'Astra'

The mask has slipped.

Yes, it slipped right off there

I wonder why Hayton thinks there isnt any exceptions and it's never been possible to exclude male transpeople from female spaces?

Women have been talking about this for years and why it's vital that the EA remains and used more widely.

I’m confused by DH’s comments, isn’t Mhairi Black quite against sex-based protections?

I think Mhairi Black is quoting the EA confident that it isn't been used and knowing that organisations are too confused by it or too frightened of the consequence of using it incorrectly.

Hayton is concerned that the EA might be used correctly for the safety and dignity of women and girls.

Debbie seems to support single sex spaces, but doesn't respect them

"It's bad news for the GRC transwomen who use those spaces"

I can't unhear that sentence.
Or the unspoken "and me" that he doesn't quite add.

Hayton I have seen more as a "resource" than an "ally". (Hayton has stated that he does not intend to apply for a GRC and that he accepts male pronouns - in case this gets reported to Mumsnet Mods ).

Hayton has said the "right things" in the "Serious Press" and many men pay attention because,

a) they see him as a man and

b) they have respect for his "serious, respectable, manly-but-intellectual" job (physics teacher) and "serious" citizenship (union activist) and

c) they perceive his views as having the backing of other men, ie. because of where he gets published.

I say this because of the feedback I have received from men when I have shared a clutch of articles by Hayton and others whose writings I think are helpful.

This did not make me feel obliged to consider Hayton as an "ally" or to have any particular personal feelings towards him.

However, I do have personal feelings about Hayton. The notion that I should have was prompted by comments made by Jenn Smith on Twitter, regarding access to women's spaces like public toilets (screenshots).

This was the first clue I had that Hayton's public pronouncements might not be reflected in his personal behaviour:

"These "champions" of the "middle-path" become awful quiet when u start asking important questions like this. Furthermore, any laws that allow KJH & Debbie Hayton (who is no friend of women) access subject to surgical status will eventually be struck down by human rights challenges . . . I still believe if you are born male you use male facilities, I do all the time and nobody has touched me."

( Smith says he is a "transgender identified male" and uses male pronouns - I think that is relevant to this discussion, Mumsnet Mods.)

I have dipped in and out of this thread so I will have missed some posts. However, I have read enough to know that if I ever again think it would be helpful to share one of Hayton's articles that it will be with gritted teeth and with regret that in doing so I will be promoting his hypocritical arse!

This whole "allies" thing is a bit weird anyway. I see how the trans lobby utilises it effectively and even commercialises it with badges so on. It is very "cultish" and manipulative though, particularly how they use it with the, "you are not a true ally unless you . . . " demands.

Would it be healthier to frame things more along the lines of refusing to talk about men, "helping with the housework" . (Issue-based, I am not talking about feminism.) Apologies for being vague and if this has already come up and I have missed it.

Whatever, nobody is perfect but "allies" who push at and try to sneak past the very boundaries they say they are helping us to defend, who try to tailgate into our spaces by doing a "best buddy" act?

Hayton was never an ally to women. Trojan horse more like. He uses Self ID FFS. He doesn't want GRCs because he has it all already and without women having to consent or be forced by law - just by his own personal acts of control and force (mental rather than physical).

Yes while some men listened to Hayton there was always the fundamental hypocrisy that undermined any GC leanings he purported to have and any writing he did eg the TES piece giving advice. That piece was equivocating bullshit. It was all bullshit and some fell into the trap of appeasement or gratefulness or settling or using DH even, and it all played into Hayton's self serving fantasy.

I will not buy into promoting them or anything they write - it damages the GC cause every time. We need to set our standards higher than 'allies' like Hayton. Women deserve better.

And actually I think that men who invade women's spaces without consent are as bad as those who seek to do it by force of law. Worse maybe. The deception, the taking advantage, the 'go on I dare you to say something', the victimy acting that is so offensive to true victims, the blood sucking empathy demands when women are afforded so bloody little.

If you have a mental health problem truly own it and seek truth and treatment. That is brave. That is something I can respect you for and support you with. Don't expect women and girls to suffer to be your enablers while you harm us.

We are where we are because of men like Hayton. They were the vanguard.

Two amazing responses there, thank you

It's all self ID - don't they get that? It's just that a GRC puts an official stamp on it.

There's always an undercurrent of "we're in your spaces already and there's nothing you can do about it bwaahhaa" about all of this that comes across as sinister. Not sure if that's intentional?

Ayerobot Yes, it reminds me of 'men don't need to put on a dress to assault women'.

Anyone promoting Hayton as spokesperson for anyone other than Hayton needs to read the transwidow thread then watch Hayton and Hayton's wife in Stella O'Malley's documentary

Thanks to Hayton and the other 'allies' looks like we have lost Dr Em.