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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boundaries and Allies

408 replies

DancingRaven · 06/06/2019 07:44

I came across a post on Twitter which included what appears as a screenshot from a WhatsApp conversation with a gender critical ally. The image is attached for reference.

It is so disappointing to see this, are women's boundaries just amusing to everyone? How can we work together when our sex based rights are just 'politics'?

Boundaries and Allies
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Barracker · 07/06/2019 22:15

Thank you Muststopfaffing.
You don't know how much I appreciate that.
Of course I'm aware that a woman bluntly saying no, and God forbid, prioritising female children over grown men, especially when so many women feel obligated to those men because they threw us some crumbs they didn't fancy, is shocking.

If you met me in real life you'd possibly be surprised. I don't enjoy conflict. I blush if I accidentally commit a faux pas.
I stay awake worrying about having said the wrong thing, or hurt someone's feelings, or wondering if someone dislikes me.
I've been brilliantly socialised to apologise when someone treads on my toes.

It's easy to imagine that it's a certain objectionable breed of nasty women that can't even be grateful to the poor old vulnerable transexuals.

The truth is, I've decided to tolerate any degree of discomfort, hatred or disapproval to do what seems right to me.
But I've never been an 'I don't give a shit what they say about me' kind of person. Posie Parker has some gene I don't.
I wish I had it.

There's a cost to making oneself profoundly unpopular, yet it's a price some of us have chosen to pay. It still is felt. Keenly.

OhHolyJesus · 07/06/2019 22:40

Like justanother I'm working on my female socialisation also and agree with muststop - I previously thought Barracker was harsh now I'm just so thankful for the calling of it how it is. I still have to check myself sometimes, it's so ingrained.

I can't remember the MN who posted this but it was asking how we are meant to know the difference between the nice, kind trans who just want to pee and the man who is going to hurt us - with just a split second glance at the toilet door.

"There's no time for a DBS check".

If you let one in, you let them all in, as has been proven and this is where we are now. No one actually fucking asked us and now we are telling them to fuck off out of our spaces we can't say 'oh but the nice ones can stay'. If they were nice they would back us up and go pee with the men and get the men to accept them in their loos!

Are we now being expected to teach our daughters how to tell which ones are safe? Are we to tell them that they are not important and their boundaries don't matter?

Sevigny · 07/06/2019 22:56

Barracker, in making that decision to speak up despite the personal cost, your writing has spurred very many more women to raise their voices on this subject, as this thread attests.

There are so many amazing, erudite, committed women in this fight. We must hand the megaphone to them at every single opportunity, not to the men who seek to speak for us.

Ereshkigal · 07/06/2019 23:42

TinselAngel

You are a one woman saviour. Your compassion on that thread is only matched by your steely determination to adhere to reality.

This.

pachyderm · 08/06/2019 00:11

That DH in the TES thread actually gave me goosebumps as it unfolded - as someone put it, the scales fell from my scales. Suddenly I saw all of it for what it really was.

I used to think you were harsh too Barracker. Now I get it, and in my life where I've been having conversations about it,some people think I'm harsh too. But I keep at it because oh lord when they get it it's like the Matrix.

Barracker · 08/06/2019 09:54

Thanks for all the 'not as harsh as I thought' comments GrinGrinGrin.
I like to think I'm 'unyielding' when it comes to any demands to cede the rights of little girls and big ones, to men.
It's easier to live with!

But thanks so much for saying it - the posts saying 'I've changed my mind' are some of the most powerful posts on the internet.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/06/2019 10:11

And I never quietly 'accommodated' TW in female space

I have seen 'old school transexuals' in women's toilets before. I didn't say anything or react in any way. Not because they passed. Not because I was accepting. Not because I was "quietly" accomodating. .

But because I was flustered to see a man in the toilets. I was scared to see a man in the toilets. I didn't want to "make a fuss". I wanted to be "nice". All of these things at once. And all of these things don't add up to acceptance.

I think many transwomen make this mistake.

Outanabout · 08/06/2019 10:12

Hmmnnn Orchid I googled K Harrison and at least it's dressage, which isn't something that would be different for men and women, like running or weight-lifting. Though by the same token there would be nothing to stop them joining a male team.

terryleather · 08/06/2019 10:13

I used to think you were harsh too Barracker. Now I get it, and in my life where I've been having conversations about it,some people think I'm harsh too. But I keep at it because oh lord when they get it it's like the Matrix.

When I first came to FWR I couldn't believe some of the "harsh" things that were said - not because I was shocked and affronted, quite the opposite I totally agreed with them, but I was amazed that women were allowed to say those things in that way.

FWR gave me the permission to think those thoughts and to speak them out loud.

It's been completely inspiring and I give huge thanks to those past and (still) present posters who helped me to do that Flowers

I think much of what we see on FWR is not just the scales falling from many eyes, but also confronting head on the female socialisation to be nice, to be accomodating, to put others first, to go high when they go low etc - I suspect that's why many who are new here find themselves shocked and upset by what's said and the tone in which it's said.

chilling19 · 08/06/2019 10:18

TinselAngel Another one here who reads the Transwidows thread. It is probably the only source of help for women who suffer through this. Very important and I agree with someone upthread - it is a handhold of the highest order.

BretonDinosaur · 08/06/2019 10:39

Outandabout Harrison talks openly on twitter about playing on a women’s football team, but excuses it because Harrison was in their 40s and therefore not at their sporting peak. It’s disgusting entitlement.

KatnissEverbeen · 08/06/2019 10:40

DancingRaven agreed. Glinner platforms and supports transwomen over women, so its Glinner forcing males into female only space. Him and the other men get to decide women's rights and boundaries. What an ally.

OrchidInTheSun · 08/06/2019 10:47

Thanks Breton. That's what I was referring to, not dressage (which isn't split by sex as far as I know, like all equine sports)

Outanabout · 08/06/2019 11:22

Oh well...football...fuck them.

KatnissEverbeen · 08/06/2019 11:36

Platforming Kristina and Debbie who self-id and take women's opportunities away from them, who think woman is costume or feeling, who think they dictate women's rights. What an ally, aren't women lucky to have Glinner decide our boundaries for us.

TinselAngel · 08/06/2019 11:42

In Glinner's defence, I think it's because he's so keen to not seem transphobic, that he plays the "look even some trans people agree with me" card.

Amalfimamma · 08/06/2019 11:48

TinselAngel

Honestly I feel that if you're an ally then you should listen to and respect women and not tell them to be nice and kind to d and k just because they blow smoke up your arse and are of the same sex as you.

I'm glad KatnissEverbeen brought glinner up as he's shown himself up to be a fickle ally is recent weeks. He called known and respected feminists tra trolls on Twitter, tried to Gaslight a woman who is fighting a legal case against a well known tra in both public and private and has shown he'll always believe and listen to men more than to women. Ally my backside IMHO

DancingRaven · 08/06/2019 11:49

Yes but it appears to be done at the cost of women again

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R0wantrees · 08/06/2019 11:49

Often the dynamics are those common in control-pattern behaviour.

Many people have unwittingly become 'flying monkeys'.

Worth considering the role that 'ghosting' plays too.

KatnissEverbeen · 08/06/2019 11:50

Maybe Tinsel, but then why doesn't he balance it by supporting women's (the boring female ones) voices? He's always blocking women who question him or Debbie.

KatnissEverbeen · 08/06/2019 11:52

Ghosting Row ?

R0wantrees · 08/06/2019 12:03

important article,
'Flying Monkeys (The Narcissist’s Tool for the Smear Campaign)'

(extract)
So the role of these flying monkeys is first of all abuse by proxy.
Abuse by proxy is when the narcissist gets other people to abuse you. That way the narcissist gets to abuse you but through these people. They’ll reject you, they’ll make you feel not good enough, they’ll shame you, maybe they’ll put you in a bad situation, they’ll tell you that you’re crazy, things like that. This way the narcissist looks like the one that’s clean. They’re not involved." (continues)

Flying monkeys do the narcissist’s bidding. That’s what the smear campaign is, is they’ll do whatever the narcissist wants. The narcissist wants them to go out and talk badly about you and spread lies about you or the narcissist wants them to outright abuse you or to make you feel like you don’t belong. Or maybe they invite you to a place where they know something horrible is gonna happen for you and you’re not going to be comfortable there, those sorts of things.
Flying monkeys make the narcissist feel like they’re important and special. They help the narcissist feel like they’re grandiose, like they have high status, like they’re famous or a celebrity, which is what the narcissist wants to feel. Narcissists often have a whole entourage around them just like a celebrity needs an entourage in order to feel secure about themselves." (continues)

So who can become flying monkeys?
There are two different categories of people.
The first category is the naive.
The naive are people who are just clueless. They can’t see it, they can’t fathom it, they’ve never been through anything like that, so they can’t even imagine that somebody would do such a thing to just make up all these lies about you and spread them across town. They just can’t even fathom that a human would do that or maybe the naive is also the fawning type.
This is the type of people who when faced with a fight or flight dilemma, they choose fawning instead where they just melt into into a strong, dominant personality to feel safe and they don’t realize what’s happening. You might have noticed that even you became one of these flying monkeys when you were in your naive state before you woke up, before you figured out what was going on.

The second category of people who can become flying monkeys are the toxic.
These are the people with no boundaries. They love gossip and drama, they’re addicted to that stuff. They have an integrity problem and usually they want something from the narcissist. They want status, they want flattery, they want favours. They’re getting something out of the narcissist, which is why they’re willing to do their bidding." (continues)
medium.com/@OwnYourReality/flying-monkeys-the-narcissists-tool-for-the-smear-campaign-798daf7a59c0

R0wantrees · 08/06/2019 12:10

Ghosting Row ?

'Ghosting' like 'stonewalling' is a common pattern of controlling behaviour.

People are left hanging, waiting for a response.
Its all about power.

Boundaries and Allies
BretonDinosaur · 08/06/2019 12:14

Interesting R0 - the weaponising of the block button on twitter is something I’ve seen rather a lot of recently. That really sums it up for me.

TinselAngel · 08/06/2019 12:35

Yes it grates on me too Katniss. I haven't been on twitter much recently.