Can we start an anti "nail" campaign?

[2rebecca]

As a GP who frequently washes her hands, allotment owner and instrument player I really hate the trend for women to have immaculate nails that cost a fortune, scratch people and mean women can't do anything useful. Where t f did this horrible trend come from and how do we give women back the use of their wonderful hands?

“But using the patriarchy as an excuse fails to explain how so many people manage to avoid all of the pressures apparently applied to us.”

I don’t actually think many of us do.

“Women can be all shapes and sizes, wear make up or wear no make up etc and in the main it has no impact on your job prospects or life chances”
Did you follow the Mary Beard story recently?

And there are still plenty of jobs where women are expected to wear heels and make up.

Ive been really self conscious about my nails at work today, not because i'm worried people will think I'm giving into patriarchal pressure but because I now know that many people think such nails are disgusting and repulse them.

..but if I remove my false ones, I would be equally self conscious about my quick-bitten fingernails.

Wow this thread got nasty!

I don't like long nails for myself because I can't cope with having long nails (my own or otherwise), but I don't see why other women can't have them if they want to.

Ditto clothing. I'm personally for comfy, practical clothes. DDs teacher isn't, she wears 6 inch heels and skirts daily and looks lovely. She's also not limited in any way (which surprised me tbh) by her choice of clothing in her job.

Live and let live I say for what it's worth.

I do what I do, other women do what they do and that's up to me and them respectively.

I believe some posters do get frustrated/ a bit fed up when any and all discussion about this gets dismissed or derailed (even in more civilised and nicer formats) by the constant denial.
I'm sure they do. But there's a difference between getting frustrated and fed up - which we all do sometimes - and making breathtakingly nasty, dehumanising comments. Being in denial goes both ways.

I don’t actually think many of us do.

Really? Well, using your example of the fashion and beauty industries how does the patriarchy affect those of us who don't conform to a stereotypical picture of femininity?

Ultimately we have choice. I could, quite literally, walk out of my house tomorrow looking however I wanted to look, without constraint. So, how am I controlled by the patriarchy? Unless, it is omnipotent and controls every single decision anyone could ever make, even the most random unconventional choice which somehow makes it quite impotent because in reality it would have no control.

I don't know anyone who has trouble functioning due to their manicure (or lack thereof).

the single biggest growth area in the beauty industry, and it has been this way for several years, is the pressure on men to adopt certain grooming practices.

1. I don't see that as a good thing.
2. Growth( let's not forget they have several centuries to catch up on) in men's grooming has no impact on the effects on women. The only impact is on the profits of the beauty industry. They have finally managed to secure an additional (significant) market.
3. The idea that "men do it too" doesn't help anyone, it just means that there are more (mostly young )people being harmed physically and mentally in the search of beauty and perfection.

4.It also not only (tries to ) shut up arguments against with "men do it too" but raises the bar for an already saturated market in female beauty, "men do x,y,z as a bare minimum, anything less it's letting yourself go". Quite clever really.

And there are still plenty of jobs where women are expected to wear heels and make up.

They are becoming fewer and fewer and there are always alternatives.

And by the Mary Beard story do you mean a few years ago? If so, yes I know about it. I also know about the back lash in support of her and again, that is an individual case. TV and film are always going to be an anomaly, it isn't representative of society as a whole and it is changing.

I do what I do, other women do what they do and that's up to me and them respectively

Yeah but with all due respect, as a woman you don't think for yourself - you're only doing what the patriarchy has told you to do.
Because of the fact, poor child, you've been brainwashed.
Apparently.

YourSarcasmIsDripping

Yes, they are the points we were making when including men's grooming in answer to your question and people only made the comments about men's grooming because your question focused on women and girls and whether we thought it was harmful.

“Really? Well, using your example of the fashion and beauty industries how does the patriarchy affect those of us who don't conform to a stereotypical picture of femininity?”

There will always be individuals who are unaffected by any sort of societal pressure. But I don’t think it’s useful when discussing how people are in general to focus on individuals. Do you shave your legs and armpits, by the way?

Yeah but with all due respect, as a woman you don't think for yourself - you're only doing what the patriarchy has told you to do.
Because of the fact, poor child, you've been brainwashed.
Apparently.

Even if we do the opposite of what the patriarchy wants us to do we are still doing what the patriarchy wants us to do too, somehow.

It's like some sort of reverse logic, like when I used to say to the kids "don't you dare do the washing up" in the hope that they would defy me and do it 😂 (they never did. Far too clever)

@limekiwi- you are rather making my point for me!

There will always be individuals who are unaffected by any sort of societal pressure. But I don’t think it’s useful when discussing how people are in general to focus on individuals. Do you shave your legs and armpits, by the way?

Hhmm, yet you gave an example of an individual, Mary Beard, to somehow prove your argument? And, no I don't but then my hair is very sparse as a side effect of medication.

“Hhmm, yet you gave an example of an individual, Mary Beard, to somehow prove your argument?”

I’m not trying to prove anything. I know that nothing I say will make any difference to your point of view.

""Men shaming women for their appearance is commonplace."

This thread seems to show that women shaming women is just as commonplace."

I was thinking about this earlier before I saw your post. I have never had a woman comment on my body or my appearance negatively in public or in conversation. Most of those insults from men I mentioned were men commenting or shouting out in the street. People have opinions, some of which they should keep to themselves, but it is totally different to have someone actually criticising your appearance in person. It stays with you. I couldn't care less what someone on an internet forum thinks, but to be going about your business and getting insulted is very unpleasant.

focused on women and girls and whether we thought it was harmful.

Yes I must admit that my focus is mainly on women and girls(well children really).

You're right, it won't.

I just find it odd that you raise an objection to a point based on an argument that you yourself used.

Even if we do the opposite of what the patriarchy wants us to do we are still doing what the patriarchy wants us to do too, somehow.

Exactly

@limekiwi- you are rather making my point for me!
Well yes, because in your head everything you do is you being controlled by an all powerful, unseeing being. It must be exhausting for you.
You see women as mere puppets unable to think for themselves and you (as in women in general) telling other women what to do is just as bad as any men who do it.

“You see women as mere puppets unable to think for themselves and you (as in women in general) telling other women what to do is just as bad as any men who do it.”

No I don’t. But hey ho.

I have never had a woman comment on my body or my appearance negatively in public or in conversation.

Sadly this is not my experience. I've had women and girls comment on my looks and mostly behaviour. I was slut shamed by peers and adults. It was a girl that made up my first fat related nickname.
I've been through a lot of shit (physically mostly at the hands of men/boys) but the most damage (mentally/emotionally) was done by women. Women who were supposed to care for me,to protect me, women who were supposed to be an inspiration, women who had the power to help ,advise and support.

I understand a bit more as to why,even if it goes against everything I am and believe in. I can't accept it or forgive it though.

I actually happen to agree with everything you have written in your 2 posts BertrandRussell. The beauty industry is set up to put put pressure on women and spend money to conform with what the patriarchal society tells us to do.

The bit that sticks in my throat, is the bit about some women who (in your words) go like steamroller trying to convert people,get holier than thou and get smug and arrogant. These women who are more than happy to tell other women not to conform, are I also infact conforming. Their message is really hollow and hypocritical. How can you enlighten other women about not conforming by not painting your nails, but at then go home and shave your legs?