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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A pleasant surprise

538 replies

APleasantSurprise · 01/06/2019 11:15

NC for this as very outing.

I came across a number of Tweets from a user whose profile described him as a serving officer with the Met. This is the complaint I sent yesterday:

Jon Killen, a emergency response officer in the MPS and LGBT+ officer, is issuing Tweets that I consider misogynist. His Twitter account (@LDNResponseCop) clearly identifies him professionally, so he cannot argue that he's only offering personal opinions. I cannot think his social media presence is doing anything good for the Met. It seems highly unprofessional. Certainly I would have less confidence were I involved in an incident and had to deal with Jon Killen than I would in a generic officer. Please look at what he's saying - and the response from many LGBT Twitter users who find his Tweets offensive. The police must be seen to be impartial.

I got a call from an inspector this morning. He'd gone through the officer's Tweets and agreed with me. He said it wasn't a disciplinary matter as there were no personally offensive Tweets but that the Tweets definitely overstepped the bounds of what a serving police officer should be saying on social media. A conversation was in order and he would be talking to the officer soon.

Only a small step, but I was pleased the Met seems to have taken it seriously.

OP posts:
QueenOfTheTofuTree · 04/06/2019 15:14

OldCrone I assume that she might masculine and feminine rather than man and woman?

Even then it still doesn't make sense because nobody is 100% masculine or feminine.

Going by Stonewall's own definition of non-binary, I am non-binary Confused.

QueenOfTheTofuTree · 04/06/2019 15:14

*meant

Zoecb · 04/06/2019 15:21

So you really think if you woke up tomorrow with the body of a man but all your same thoughts and memories and identity and personality you’d be fine to just swap and become a man and your mind wouldn’t be bothered than you could no longer be referred to as a woman or a mother or any other terms that are gendered but that you identify deeply with? That's what I mean by mind. It’s hard for the brain to describe itself, it’s all a bit meta and hard to pin down with language. I’m just pretty sure you all know who and what you are and wouldn’t be able to be talked out of it.

Some labels are for a chosen behaviour not an identity - you can’t really choose those in the same way. One doesn’t choose to be gay or straight or bisexual but one can choose to be promiscuous or to be monogamous or to be celibate. You can’t choose to be white or not (well unless you’re Michael Jackson!) but you can choose whether or not to be a racist. You can choose whether or not to be a transphobe or act as a piece of lawn. If you don’t want to be called one it’s easy to stop being one. Transpeople can’t just suddenly not be trans but transphobes can stop hating them any moment they like.

QueenOfTheTofuTree · 04/06/2019 15:27

So you really think if you woke up tomorrow with the body of a man but all your same thoughts and memories and identity and personality you’d be fine to just swap and become a man and your mind wouldn’t be bothered than you could no longer be referred to as a woman or a mother or any other terms that are gendered but that you identify deeply with?

I might be a bit confused to begin with given that I have spent 28 years as a woman but after that I think I would adapt pretty well.

transphobes can stop hating them any moment they like.

Agreed. Luckily nobody on here hates trans people.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 04/06/2019 15:29

So you really think if you woke up tomorrow with the body of a man

What an utterly stupid waste of our time this is when you write such complete nonsense.

NOBODY is born in the wrong body. It isn’t a thing. There is no scientific basis for it. It’s lunacy to think it can happen.

QueenOfTheTofuTree · 04/06/2019 15:34

FWIW I don't think people can be born in the wrong body either. You are born in your body. How can a body be wrong?

People can of course believe they were born in the wrong body and this of course can cause extreme distress. However just because you believe something doesn't make it so.

A trans poster explained once that the whole born in the wrong body thing was originally coined so they could describe to other people what it felt like. So they could put how they were feeling into words but it was never meant to be taken literally.

FloralBunting · 04/06/2019 15:46

Ah, haven't had a proper bunfight to hash out the issues clearly with an AWA for ages. It is good to air it all out once in a while, rehearse all the AWA cliches and show the lurkers how easily these lies and misdirections are countered.

I am slightly disappointed that the 'if you woke up in a man's body you would be a woman trapped in a man's body' thing has come up twice. A bit lazy to repeat the high concept movie plot trick twice in a single thread. (FwIW, this one is so easy - it's a fantasy situation that never happens, but if you did have a mind swap into a male body, you would now be a male for the purposes of single sex provision, so you would have to get used to it...)

CuriousaboutSamphire · 04/06/2019 15:48

It made Chat last week (ish) didn't it?

What would you do if you woke up as a man?

Most common answer was "Have a wank, see what all the fuss is about"

ZebrasAreBras · 04/06/2019 15:53

If I woke up in a man's body tomorrow (obvs impossible) but if I did, I sure as fuck wouldn't be going into the women's loos.

OldCrone · 04/06/2019 16:03

So you really think if you woke up tomorrow with the body of a man

In the whole of human history, this has never happened. You might as well say 'if you woke up tomorrow with the body of a horse', or 'if you woke up tomorrow on Mars'. It's fantasy. Fine if you're writing a novel, but not really the point of this discussion.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/06/2019 16:13

Kafka

CuriousaboutSamphire · 04/06/2019 16:17

Don't get too clever there, Fekko!

Zoecb · 04/06/2019 16:17

Well if no one has the imagination and/or motivation to put themselves in another’s shoes and empathise with someone else’s experience then why bother pretending to respect anybody, quite frankly.
Just keep bashing the groups that society has not yet en masse come to support the rights of while still complaining that they’re still doing it to you.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 04/06/2019 16:18

Maybe start with Jennie. Cats being easier to understand Smile

CuriousaboutSamphire · 04/06/2019 16:19

if no one has the imagination and/or motivation to put themselves in another’s shoes Kinky Boots?

Please stop. My must read / watch again list is growing at an alarming rate Grin

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 04/06/2019 16:21

I would NOT like to wake up as a bug

Just throwing that one out there

Id be wrapped in bog roll and thrown out the window before i could think ‘ what the fuuuuuu....’

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/06/2019 16:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lorit · 04/06/2019 16:24

Why don't transactivists respect women's experiences and needs?

Why is it expected to be a one-way street?

JackyHolyoake · 04/06/2019 16:30

Transpeople can’t just suddenly not be trans but transphobes can stop hating them any moment they like.

Hatred of individual people has nothing whatsoever to do with this.

The point is that we don't believe the ideology described as "gender identity" or "transgenderism":

we don't believe that humans can change sex;
we don't believe that anyone is born in the "wrong body";
we don't believe there is such a thing an experience as "transgender".

Similarly, not believing in any other religion does not mean "hatred" of any of those individuals who do believe. Neither does it mean that the existence of those who do believe is being denied.

FloralBunting · 04/06/2019 16:32

Imagining hypothetical fantasy situations is irrelevant to whether or not women should feel compelled to include men in their considerations, rights, spaces or feminism.

Here's another reminder for everyone - Feminism is not meant to solve all the injustices in the world. We are not everyone's mum.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 04/06/2019 16:33

Well if no one has the imagination and/or motivation to put themselves in another’s shoes and empathise with someone else’s experience then why bother pretending to respect anybody, quite frankly

Your thought experiment bears no resemblance whatsoever to the lives of males who feel compelled to comply with feminine stereotypes of appearance

They are born male with male bodies. No science fiction body swapping involved

If you contend that they have female minds, please give the identifying characteristics of such a mind

FloralBunting · 04/06/2019 16:37

Neurotypical is a word created by the autistic community to describe non-autistics.

Using it as an antonym for crazy is a bit cunty. And wrong.

Couldn't agree more. I am in fact neurotypical, though not all my kids are, but I have had MH issues, and think the conflation of the two is unhelpful to say the least.
Still enjoyed it being assumed that I was an atheist, though.

Zoecb · 04/06/2019 17:13

Nope, Neurotypical is an antonym for neurodivergent/neuroatypical which covers far more than autistic people. Struggled to find an antonym for crazy tbh. Also struggled to find an antonym for mystic so went for atheist. Didn’t actually level either word at anybody, just said a bunch of crazy mystics sounds like a way better party. Anyway if I went through and corrected every wilful misunderstanding in this thread designed to ridicule me I’d have wasted even more of my day than I already have.
Enjoy your grassy bubble.

FloralBunting · 04/06/2019 17:16

Wow. Not only not understanding feminism's approach to gender, but correcting a person with autism about their own language? Why am I not surprised?

JessicaWakefieldSV · 04/06/2019 17:22

Nope, Neurotypical is an antonym for neurodivergent/neuroatypical which covers far more than autistic people

I was enjoying the laughs your utter lunacy was giving me, but now you’re just getting right on my nerves. That sentence I’ve highlighted doesn’t even make sense. If you don’t understand the term neurotypical, you don’t, then don’t use it. Neurotypical is used to describe those who are not autistic, you don’t get to use it any way you like. Much like the word woman. I’m assuming it’s not just ignorance on your part, but actual ableism. You should stop.