A pleasant surprise

[APleasantSurprise]

NC for this as very outing.

I came across a number of Tweets from a user whose profile described him as a serving officer with the Met. This is the complaint I sent yesterday:

Jon Killen, a emergency response officer in the MPS and LGBT+ officer, is issuing Tweets that I consider misogynist. His Twitter account (@LDNResponseCop) clearly identifies him professionally, so he cannot argue that he's only offering personal opinions. I cannot think his social media presence is doing anything good for the Met. It seems highly unprofessional. Certainly I would have less confidence were I involved in an incident and had to deal with Jon Killen than I would in a generic officer. Please look at what he's saying - and the response from many LGBT Twitter users who find his Tweets offensive. The police must be seen to be impartial.

I got a call from an inspector this morning. He'd gone through the officer's Tweets and agreed with me. He said it wasn't a disciplinary matter as there were no personally offensive Tweets but that the Tweets definitely overstepped the bounds of what a serving police officer should be saying on social media. A conversation was in order and he would be talking to the officer soon.

Only a small step, but I was pleased the Met seems to have taken it seriously.

Funny! I thought OurZoe was informed.

I took the dog for a walk and come back to Our Zoe wondering what Lesbians on Chairs is; recapping the done to death shite with the glib accusation "you're making a lot of that up" when the 'stuff' is well known, lonhgstanding bollocks, much of which made manstream newspaper headlines and even a telly programme or three.

Zoe No, we aren't maing stuff up. Had you taken advice and done some more reading you would realise that you are talking with people who know a lot more about recent TRA actions, longstanding TRA actions and GCFeminist rebuttals than you do.

You would know that the women you are trying to educate are often highly educated, working in some high level science positions and have put themselved on the line for their GC Feminist beliefs, out there in the real world. Some have even had their jobs threatened. For being women who don't believe humans can change sex.

Now, be a good girl and be nice about that!

Intersectional feminism is trans-inclusive

Not strictly true, I'm afraid.

They may be inclusive of transwomen but they certainly aren't inclusive of transmen.

Gender critical feminists on the other hand may exclude transwomen but they include transmen.

Only one of those groups are vilified however and labelled transphobic. Funny that.

Why do you think that transwomen‘s rights and other women’s rights are in opposition? Do you see transwomen rallying against safe and legal abortions? Maternity leave? Equal pay? We’re all on the same side here wanting appropriate healthcare for our needs even if one woman’s need is help to successfully get through a pregnancy to term, while another’s need is to be able to terminate one safely, for example. If you’re pro-IVF-funding, are you anti-abortion? It’s about freedom and the right to make decisions for yourself, that’s what we all want.

The only one making up things here is you. Or rather trying to squish a cube into a round hole. No women’s issue affects 100% of women, it’s not some bar we have to reach or a series of boxes we have to check. Women’s issues are issues that affect only women, not all women all at the same time. Biology drives us, not feelings and or life stages when we might encounter non-optimal functioning of our reproductive organs. Just because you can point to a prepubescent girl or post-menopausal or infertile woman and say ‘well they can’t have babies either - so why are they women and this person with a penis can’t be?’ Grow up.

Unfortunately, thinking dysphoria is a requirement to be trans makes you as much as a 'TERF' as people who outright state that people cannot change sex. Thats actualy where I started off on this road, being threatened and such because I said online that I had sympathy for trans people as having dysphoria must be horrible to live with (any kind of dysphoria tbh). I was attacked for hours by transactivists as I was a bio essentialist or something for saying that trans people felt 'in the wrong body' and that and informed that may transwomen do not have dysphoria and would never want rid of their penis and that the penis was a female organ as much as a male one. Quick u-turn..really

Should clarify, u-turn on how I viewed transactivsts/transactivism as it stands today. I decided then and there that the ones spouting that nonsense are nothing more than MRAs with an inventive disguise. Not a u-turn on feeling sympathy for those with dysphoria..I still have that

Yeah, denying transmen the reality of their existence and trying to force them to be women is super-supportive, they’re really grateful for the inclusion sarcasm.

Thankfully the queer community has their backs.

I dread to think how you treat people who have an androgynous look/style for no particular reason :-D. Must be very confusing for you!

Might I remind you that it's gender critical feminists who are trying to abolish gender stereotypes and roles? It is not logical or consistent for us to to be confused by people who have an androgynous style.

If anything it should be the intersectional feminists such as yourself who would be confused by it seeing as you seem keen to enforce gender roles on people and put them into boxes. You were after all the one who mentioned having a 'female mind' earlier...

How is Cloud Cuckoo Land today Zoe It's absolute stair rods here, glad I got back from my walk!

I may have to make a cake... cheer myself up

The reality of transmen's existence is that they were born female, along with all that entails.

The reality of teen girl's existence in this pornified society, in this society where young girls and teenagers are routinely sexualised and harassed, is that they don't want to be a woman, they'd rather be a man. That's why GIDS referrals have gone up 4000% or something.

However, most of them, left alone, will desist.

"Queer community has their backs" - right - they'll have them on T with their breast surgically removed before you can say "80% desistance rate."

Good on the queer community.

Yeah, denying transmen the reality of their existence and trying to force them to be women is super-supportive, they’re really grateful for the inclusion

Nobody is denying their existence. Of course they exist.

And nobody is forcing them to be women either because biologically, they are women. There is no force about it.

I do notice that you choose to ignore the fact that a lot of so-called inclusive feminists activiely exclude transmen. Then again that's what you do best, isn't it?

Might I remind you that it's gender critical feminists who are trying to abolish gender stereotypes and roles? It is not logical or consistent for us to to be confused by people who have an androgynous style.

Well yes, of course. Its an odd line of argument really, when GC feminists tend to reject gender completely and see it as nowt but a set of stereotypes the world shoves onto us.

Logically, it should be 'the other side' who are confused about people not following stereptypes, given they (not zoe as she seems to see trans as transsexual..so people with dysphoria which is obviously different) think that if you don't fit the stereotypes, you actually ARE the opposite sex So they class androgynous people as 'non-binary' even though..well everyome is non-binary/ Its all nonsense. Would be much easier if it all went back to usual, where trans actually meant transsexual. Would make it easier for me anyway.

Gender “roles” are things like ‘get back in the kitchen’ or ‘go fix my car’. Shouldn’t be imposed on anyone. I don’t put other people into gender boxes, people adopt linguistically-created labels they feel describe them most accurately and reject those that misrepresent them. I have non-binary friends who don’t feel fully accurately described by the terms man OR woman. They just want to be them. I don’t find it hard to respect that.

See all the language does is illustrate how 2 sexed humans are

Non binary
Trans - from what to what?

Androgynous means lack of distinctly male or female aspect, being a combination of the two

With every TRA utterance they START at the position of there only being 2 sexes.

people adopt linguistically-created labels they feel describe them most accurately and reject those that misrepresent them Except women! You yourself chose to use teh teerm TERF, a term women rject. Cis is another. All TRAs and Woked Bods use that, all the time, They don't stop when asked...

And stop with the "ooh I am nice to my trans frends" flannel. You've already been told, many posters here have trans friends and family, some are trans, many (being GC Fems) are the very defintion of non biary, if you like the Stonewall defintion. You ain't unique in knowing any trans or non binary people!

So if you don't think gender roles should be imposed on anyone then what exactly did you mean when you said you had a female mind? How can you explain that without resorting to stereotypes?

And what do you think about the NHS gender dysphoria symptom page which explicitly states that wanting to wear clothes of the opposite sex and play with toys associated with the opposite sex are signs that a child is trans? If that is not enforcing gender roles and attempting to put people into boxes then what is it?

Oh and I had pretty much every single 'symptom' on that list when I was a child. I also wouldn't care if I woke up tomorrow in a man's body. In fact I can think of several advantages it would bring me. I'm still not trans though.

Me too! I even went by the male version of my name for a few years, now use a version that is unisex

Using Stonewall's definition I am definitely trans!!!

That's what words and boxes and gender ideology does to you.

Why am I getting pictures of women in tiny denim shorts on the RHS of my screen??

Zoeb Being socialised male actually gives transwomen a very unique and useful insight into feminist issues, they have very illuminating perspectives that are particularly good for making men understand women’s experiences. A valuable asset!

An asset which so far socialised males turned transwomen seem to be doing bugger all with. I await examples of where this has happened and had made a difference to the lives of adult human females (Along with your definition of a woman).

Unless by that you mean they can tell us how to be women "properly "? ...

I am still waiting to hear about Zoe’s female mind

Come on, I’m agog

Also a lot of those 'symptoms' seem perfectly normal to me.

Who doesn't feel distressed by puberty? I'm not sure if it's different for boys but I know it was perfectly normal for girls to feel distressed and upset by puberty and the thought of having to go through it.

I have non-binary friends who don’t feel fully accurately described by the terms man OR woman.

Man = adult male human; Woman = adult female human. Every adult human is one or the other, so is accurately described by one of those terms. 'Man' and 'woman' don't say anything about anyone's personality.

An asset which so far socialised males turned transwomen seem to be doing bugger all with. I await examples of where this has happened and had made a difference to the lives of adult human females

Miranda Yardley?

Hmm, I wonder what Zoeb makes of transwomen like Miranda Yardley? The ones who acknowledge they are male and are okay with that? Would she tell them they're wrong and she knows better than them?