Even when they get what they want....

[BoxOfBabyCheeses]

....they still scream "transphobia!"

UCLA have said that they will install a number of unisex bathrooms throughout campus. These will have floor to ceiling partitions to protect privacy. Now students are claiming that this is transphobia as it implies that trans people are all peeping toms. They get what they claim they want, but they want it on their terms not ours.

Where is my soul and what the heck is it.

I lost mine along with my vagina in a tragic accident.

Don't rub too hard sparticus, you might smudge your soul.

Mandala debate is not attack, you are not being attacked as you say.

Feminism isn't about equality for it all it's about fighting inequalities that disadvantage women and girls. And yes I mean biological.
And saying a Transwoman isn't a woman isn't taking away any rights.

I think your posts have generated discussion aimed at you because (at least for me) posters in the past voicing the same opinion as yours have refused to give examples of specific rights that are being taken away from transwomen. Access for all to a single sex space would mean some biological women would be unable to use changing facilities due to their religion - how is that right? I'm tired of hearing a total lack of care for safeguarding with no comprehension of how this affects people like me, my elderly mum and my 11 year old DD.

And I think you basically lost respect for your opinions when you trotted the "souls" argument out.

As I said in the other thread about this, it’s not about transphobia it’s about control.

It's all about power and control. The power to change words and to enforce control .

Look at how women, girl, feminism, privacy, consent have all changed meaning for many people. And look who is damaged by this. It's not men, whatever their gender identity.

If souls exist, then they certainly aren't sexed!

A bit of an aside maybe, but while some religions would disagree, others would say the soul has to have a sex and it has to be the same as that of the body because fundamentally they are one thing.

"Real women's rights? Trans women are real women."

So what are they transitioning from if they are real women? (They aren't btw, sorry about that )

It's interesting that the main argument for trans women to use the female bathrooms is because they do not feel safe using the men's. So you would think that enclosed cubicles in a unisex bathroom, would make them feel safer against the men they claim would attack them. No they just want to push their power more and more. This is aboutmensrights not womens.
I agree and I would bet that most post-op transsexual women who we've shared bathrooms with for years would be just fine with the new arrangement because they, like us, wish to use the toilet in peace.

The only people who would have an issue with a bathroom solution that offers privacy to everyone are people who wish to invade other people's privacy, in other words predatory men or the TRA lobby.

Mandala6

@ALittleBitofVitriol What kind of a question is that? Is it designed so any answer I get can be picked apart and proven wrong? Grow up.

Hit a nerve did I?

It is an honest question. The basis of communication is having a common understanding of terms. Your phrase "transwomen are real women" is nonsensical to the definition of both 'women' and 'transwomen'. While we're here, what's your definition of 'gender' please?

And so we are back to the question of: why is segregating vulnerable/undressed bodies by 'souls' - or by any other inexplicable, indefinable, immeasurable, mystical, self reported characteristic - more practical and beneficial to women than segregating by the physical sex of those bodies?

Mandala, can you understand that the belief in a 'womanly soul' that's distinct from a woman's female biology is actually really regressive and unfeminist? It suggests that there is a typical or correct way to be a woman in terms of your feelings and thoughts and emotions, and the obvious extension of that is that women who don't conform to the 'typical woman' stereotype are somehow doing it wrong.

Saying that being a woman is about more than just your body parts sounds really right on and feminist, until you examine it and realise that it's actually the opposite. My personhood is about way more than my chromosomes or my vagina; but my womanhood is about exactly those things, and all the social effects of having them. That's what makes us different from men - not our girly thoughts.

Mandala6 please stay and read a bit. I am sure that all of us her want all people who identify as transgender to be protected from harm and discrimination. In fact, there are some people here who a few years ago may well have stated exactly the same thing as you that trans women are real women. However it has become apparent to many that the implementation of that opinion or belief, into policies and practice, is causing great harm to far too many girls and women. It is massively affecting women and girls' rights and is a safeguarding nightmare.

I mostly write on here about my perspective as someone who was subjected to grooming and sexual abuse as a girl by an adult male relative and also the sexually inappropriate behaviour I was subjected to by two boys. It is not fair on the girls in school now who have experienced sexual abuse, and who may feel unable to speak up about it, to be retraumatised by having to share changing rooms, toilets or rooms on residential trips with a male, even if they identify as female. Nor should that girl be told to ignore her own emerging and fragile boundaries and instincts, in order to be kind and inclusive to males.

Equally that girl should not be taught that males can be trusted as long as they dress differently to other men or as long as they say that they can be trusted because they identify as female. If a girl is being told this then how will she trust anyone enough to disclose her abuse, when their opinions are the opposite to her recognition of the facts.

I have many other concerns which I won't write here but I do not wish to stand by and watch the exclusion from society of these girls or indeed any girl.

Please don't feel attacked Mandal6, it is just that the brilliant contributors on here are trying so hard to protect and defend women and children from harm. It would be great if you would have a look into some of the concerns that they are raising.

Mandala6

Men - human adult male
Women - human adult female
Transwomen - human adult male
Transman - human adult female

That is reality, not ideology.

Strewth. It's indefensible.

^ This... just this

@Mandala6 don't worry, it's the way it always goes. How the hell people can say that isn't a pile on?!
It's why you're left with an echo chamber in here and hardly hear any other views.
I for one thought it was refreshing to hear another voice, until the inevitable took over.
You said your opinion well, shame people have to mock.
Sighs and the word idiot used for people with different opinions. Not a pile on? OK

The reaction wasn't because of a different opinion. Mandala6 said that trans women were women. But refused to answer what a woman was, if not an adult human female.

If a poster can't say 'what is a woman', without resorting to insults, they can hardly accuse people of a pile on.
You look completely ridiculous defending 'women are defined by their souls' on a feminist forum and not expecting a robust response.

Refused to answer
Is there any wonder when the minute someone puts forward a different point of view they get sigh, the word idiot, years tears of laughter and a rock?
But it's not a pile on

No idea where the random word years came from in that post!

Women are not defined by their souls, get over it.

Was it not Mandala themselves who used the word idiot to describe Layla Moran

The reaction is because for such a long time now we've been hearing the same mantra that trans women are women, yet nobody can explain what a woman is. Not once have I heard an explanation that makes any sense except for the OED definition. I am not a stereotypical woman. I swear like a trooper and am more of a bloke than a lot of the men I work with - even been told this by them before anyone jumps on that. Does that mean I am less of a woman than a man in a dress with a face full of make up and carefully coiffed hair? This is what women have fought against for years. Being a woman isn't how you act or look. It's being stepped on and overlooked your entire life by men - who now want to take the very word away that we describe ourselves as.

Don't think anybody did say they were defined by their souls?
I read it that there could be something else as well. Apologies mandala if that's not what you meant?
Get over it? Wow. OK - I'm right, you're not get over it.
It's people who accept transwomen who want people to all think the same though so the other way round is new!

You said your opinion well

Actually, they didn't.
They couldn't even explain the bases of which the opinion came from, what a woman is.

They are perfectly entitled to have and express that TWAW of course, but at some point you have to define what you are talking about, you have to actually think about what is being said.

And that never came.

LimeKiwi

Maybe you can answer my question?

How can you tell the difference between a man in a dress and a trans-woman?

Both are able to say the feel "like a woman".

This is why protection is needed.