make up and 6yo DD - what to do?

[resisterpersister]

Please help me deal with this situation!

DD's cousins came to visit yesterday, and gave 6yo DD a make up set. The cousins rarely visit and I didn't feel up to souring the visit by rejecting the gift in front of them. So she spent yesterday with her cousins, covering themselves with make up. She bloody loves it. First thing she did this morning? Put more make up on.

Lots of DD's classmates are allowed to play with make up, but she knows I won't buy it for her. I don't wear it myself. I talk to her in an age appropriate way about why I don't like make up and don't wear it.

If it was up to me, this would never have come in the house! But it's here now. I could just take it away, but I'm worried that'll make it into a huge thing, I'm not sure if that'll achieve anything other than make her want it more and feel she's been treated unjustly (and, oh, do I remember the times I felt my parents were being unjust to me!)

I suppose I could let her play with it for a few days till she forgets about it and then quietly "lose" it. (Is that cowardly?)

I could impose boundaries around it (what?). She's already said she wants to wear it to school every day and I've said errr... no!

We've been talking a bit about why adults wear make up, and I've told her about how if you wear make up every day, it's a bit like it casts a spell on you and you feel you can't go outside without wearing it, and we talked about how much of a pain that would be if her friend came round to ask her to play, but she missed out because she couldn't just leave the house.

What do I do, oh wise FWR women? I want to just throw the bloody thing away, but I'm worried about creating a bigger deal out of it and making it an even greater object of desire!

The age on the box say 5+ . Who makes this stuff FFS?

If you can't stand makeup on people, just put it in the art supplies box and use it on paper. It will be used up in an afternoon.

I let my daughter wear make up for parties, special occasions etc. I also explain why women are expected to wear make up and men aren't, and that such decisions aren't made in a vacuum due to patriarchal and societal influences.

When she is old enough to understand sexual attraction, I will also be explaining why makeup is used to express youth/health (and therefore fertility) and/or sexual availability as a tool for attracting a mate.

As a matter of interest I had a look at a men's makeup website, looking for the green lipstick, or any lipstick for that matter. All I could come up with was this:

www.mensmake-up.co.uk/mmuk-man-lip-balm-for-men.html

Quite different from what L'Oreal say, offer for women:

www.loreal-paris.co.uk/products/make-up/lip/lipstick

Anybody who is trying to compare the two is being completely disingenuous.

why did you have to search up men's and women's lipstick? surely it would have been easier to search up 'lipstick' in general? Most lipsticks are not labeled or put into the women's section, they are put in the makeup section making it gender neutral. I do agree that less women wear makeup than men but it doesn't mean that the products available can't be used by both sexes.

Lot of angst here

Yes, too much.

Personally I don't really wear make-up except for some mascara, and a slight touch of tan coloured eye-shadow. No powders, or lip stick or anything similar, and I haven't done any of that since I was 14/15. In those days I was drinking in pubs with my boyfriend and going to clubs ( proof of ID and all that was not a thing then. I even served behind the bar in a pub aged 16).

I don't do manicures, but do love my feet, and paint my toes and have a pedicure now and then. I get my eye brows waxed, and I shave my legs and arm pits. I have short hair with high-lights.

I've lived on peace camps, and in squats, and given speeches at demonstrations; been a hippie at 'healing camps', been a born again Christian; graffitied sex cinemas; and been a hunt saboteur; I had my first child aged 19, and two others by the time I was 28. I had home births. I've read most of the key feminist texts. I've lived a varied life and have developed an independent view on matters, based on personal experience.

I have a highly individualistic daughter, and now a granddaughter - and while I avoid the pink girly thing as much as possible, my granddaughter is attracted to it. I just see it as experimentation - within the cultural context in which we live, and in which she lives.

I went to an all girl school and loved sports, and I'd like that for her too. She's super intelligent and articulate. She loves climbing especially, and she swims like a fish. But someone bought her a barbie ( which I personally hate) and she shows occasional interest in it ( she's 4). I've realised that it's not worth making a fuss about. She's going to have to negotiate the world as she finds it, for herself, as she grows. All we can do is provide a context of security to explore, and to provide role models of independent, intelligent women.

She'll see that a prime minister can wear leopard print kitten heels, big costume jewellery, and lip-stick if they want; and it is not the end of the world.

why did you have to search up men's and women's lipstick? surely it would have been easier to search up 'lipstick' in general? Most lipsticks are not labeled or put into the women's section, they are put in the makeup section making it gender neutral. I do agree that less women wear makeup than men but it doesn't mean that the products available can't be used by both sexes.

Because makeup is marketed to women to be consumed by women. It's a sexed product.

Makeup marketed to men exists but it's neutral and doesn't require the elaborate face painting that women's makeup promotes. It's also a tiny market. Men in general don't wear makeup. Which is the point of this thread.

Are you going to read Woman Hating by Andrea Dworkin, Justhadathought, she completely disagrees with you.

Are you going to read Woman Hating by Andrea Dworkin, Justhadathought, she completely disagrees with you

I've read it, and Pornography: Men Hating Women. Yes, enraging and fire in the belly stuff; wanted to go out and mow down men in my car afterwards, and scowl at them in the street......for several weeks afterwards. Fantastic work! Really profound stuff! Truly!

I didn't really state much in terms of definitive opinion; was just sharing a little bit of context and my own story. some of how i cam to be where i find myself today.

Andrea Dworkin was an abused & prostituted woman. She knew what that looked like first hand, and she described and named it powerfully.
She wrote from her own experience. She was a lesbian, but who loved a man, and spent a life time with him. Hew work is visionary.

But not all of us can or want to live on that edge, in that way - or have been exposed to the extremities of things in the way she was.

We live ordinary lives, with families, partners and friends, and some of us don't mind that much, or feel that compromised about painting our toe nails and wearing a bit of mascara.

I think we all fight our own battles - the one's that matter most to us - or seem most urgent. We can't do it all alone. We still live within a context and a culture. I used to want to be a Nun. which was a symbolic way of expressing the desire to remove myself completely from the world. Devote myself to my 'cause' entirely.

But instead, I've opted for practical realism.

Pornography: Men Possessing Women ( correction)

I'm with you OP. My DD is ten soon, and has no make-up.
I'm trying to at least give her the chance to get to a bit more maturity to be able to understand that make-up should be a choice, not an obligation.
I see her friends going to parties made up, and the mums falling over themselves to say how pretty and beautiful those girls are.
Those same mums who can't leave the house without make-up for fear of 'scaring the children' tinkly laugh
I'm a grouch and I don't care!
I'd do something similar - rebrand it face paints and it goes in the crafts drawers.

This is what the high shelf was invented for. You don’t throw it away, but it lives on the high shelf where it cannot be seen. It needs to be asked for - and sure, you can play with it as long as we’re not leaving the house and you put it on in the bathroom. And then back on the high shelf. They forget it within weeks and it can then fall off the high shelf when you’re cleaning and go in the bin.

Haven’t RTFT, but this

I've told her about how if you wear make up every day, it's a bit like it casts a spell on you and you feel you can't go outside without wearing it

is a load of crap!!

I'm with you op and I understand your concerns. I agree with pp that discussion - with the aim of developing critical thinking - is valuable, but you can't predict the future or how your dd will react to your values (with them or against them); we don't neatly lift out of our own culture. I think your example of the complex and imperfect compromise of living with pollution is pretty apt.

No idea why there's so much hostility here. Makeup as a tool of oppression (and one way lady tax is applied) seems a pretty standard feminist belief. I'm a lifelong radfem and sometimes wear makeup. I believe feminism and cognitive dissonance go hand in hand.

Haven’t RTFT, but this

"I've told her about how if you wear make up every day, it's a bit like it casts a spell on you and you feel you can't go outside without wearing it"

is a load of crap!!

Do you deny many women feel they can't leave the house without make up? Not all women who use make up, of course. But it's not uncommon.

If you'd RTFT, you'd have read this post from Babdoc:

I’m retired now, but when I was an anaesthetist I was always upset by the number of women patients who turned up in theatre in full make up, and were distraught at having to take it off, saying they never dared leave home without it. Every single one of them looked far nicer with it removed- our sexist society had really done a number on their self confidence to sell them that shit.

And, this post from me (I work in marketing).

I use the word "spell" very deliberately. You can influence other people's behaviour, in predictable and measurable ways, through marketing and advertising. In times past, this kind of power to influence others would have been seen as magic. It's just another word for the same thing, and one that's easily understood by DC.

As my DC get older, I'll teach them more about how marketing influences us all, and how. My eldest and I talk about this kind of thing from time to time.

I will never forget the day when my daughter plastered herself, the carpet, the newly bought duvet covers on my expensive face cream that I'd just bought. She did glow and looked much younger than her seven years!

It's a fad, albeit one that introduces chemicals to young skin, though probably on a par with sun screen.

When she gets older she may well choose to spend all her money on cosmetics and clothes or she might just want to save it - my daughter in the end has done the latter.

Do you deny many women feel they can't leave the house without make up? Not all women who use make up, of course. But it's not uncommon

I think feminists get far more worked up about make up than other women- well they would I suppose.

As part of this I think there is a huge exaggeration by feminists of the pressure women are supposed to be under. There is a huge industry selling things which don't work, or not as well as they claim , or only if you use them religiously. I think women waste money on them. I have. Most of us have and the products languish in bags and cupboards.

However so far as resisting the oppression of not being able to go out without makeup a quick glance around any office, shop, train will show most women manage just fine with nothing or a little bit of foundation or lip gloss.

I think it suits the rather patronising agenda of certain feminists to talk up the oppression of women who always wear lots of makeup, as they see it, to make themselves a little bit superior over the vast majority of women who are relaxed about make up.

Just dipped into this again. How young are girls in the UK when they are allowed to go out in makeup?

Someone mentioned ten-year-olds?

Maybe I'm shifting over to your side, OP.

Coyoacan DD's 6 and I've noticed one or two girls wearing make up to parties, which I didn't expect to see, so young.

Not an every day thing though. I don't know when that starts (yet).

Lass

If women want to spend their money on gunk they are welcome to do so. I personally will never be convinced that it will make me look better; I am convinced it will make me poorer.

No one is denying this to a grown adult.

If there is no pressure why are 20 yos having botox?

Why does "minimal" makeup include at least 3 or 4 products?

Why are so many women on here afraid of ageing and have mountains of creams and lotions?

Why are we so afraid of wrinkles and laughter lines?

Why does every part of the female body (including the vagina ffs) have products aimed at enhancing,buffing, make it look younger,better,bigger,longer etc?

Why are there perfumes,nail polishes,makeup, hair chalks/extensions aimed at ages 3 and up?

Comparing a kiddy makeup set to a flipping golliwog doll is all sorts of fucked up for starters.

I don't know what type of feminist you are but the ones I know and including myself actively encourage girls and women to empower themselves in their own way, if that means playing with make up and dressing up or playing in the mud, bare faced, it's still their own choice. We should be encouraging them not implying that if they wear makeup they're conforming to sexist standards.

Women who don't wear makeup can be victims of sexism just as much as a glamour model and what are you going to blame then?
It's almost condoning the belief that a woman who dresses a certain way attracts unwanted attention.

I paint my younger brothers (8 and 5) nails, the eldest dyes his hair too but will still go out and be "boyish", do they need to be told they shouldn't go out and play football or play pretend guns as not to conform to the standards? Of course not. So why should our girls be any different?
You are a part of the problem OP.

Actually I did read those posts. I’m not denying there are plenty of women with self esteem issues, who prefer to go out with make up than barefaced, but to say that’s it’s make up casting a spell is absolute shit, sorry.

Although I classed myself as a feminist I didn't seek out other feminists for decades. This is because I was chucked out of my hometown's feminist group for the crimes of being sexually attractive and for enjoying sex with men. Ever since then I've thought I was not a good enough feminist. It's only in the last few years that I've felt accepted - even welcomed - by my sisters.

OP, your stance reminds me forcefully of the women that scolded me back in the 70s. I suspect a lot of us aren't good enough feminists for you. And I totally disagree.

I don’t think I’d mind too much if my DD wants to wear makeup when she’s that age, but as you have said I will do my best to ensure she doesn’t feel that she HAS to wear makeup at any time.

From what I remember my little sister did the same and it was all part of her ‘dress up’ phase. She elected to dress up as princesses, a fairy, witch, vampire, pirate etc and was around 5 or 6 when she used a kids make up set as a part of that.

She enjoys wearing makeup as an adult but she does this purely because she enjoys it. She has never thought twice about going out without it either. If anybody were to suggest she’s less of a feminist because of that, they would get quite a heated debate from her.

I on the other hand never wore makeup as a kid, I preferred trousers/shorts to skirts from a young age and playing outside to imaginative play. I was often referred to as a ‘Tom-Boy’ by my family. As an adult I do wear makeup occasionally for my own benefit. I don’t feel pressured by society to do so (but before I became a SAHM I do have to admit that I became increasingly frustrated at the number of colleagues who would comment I looked ‘tired’ or ‘ill’ when makeup free at work!) but I usually enjoy it.

Psychologically speaking I know of many reasons women choose to wear makeup, some feel pressured to conform, some don’t but enjoy wearing it as part of their expression of identity, some will take it or leave it depending on how they feel on the day with no strong feelings either way about it. But in my personal life I have never heard a woman say “I hate wearing makeup but do so anyway because I’m supposed to.” or words to that effect.

I have to admit that I have used it as a ‘mask’ occasionally. Last Monday I had to bury my youngest son, who I lost to stillbirth. The hardest thing I have ever had to do, I wore makeup to the funeral because I didn’t want others to see ‘me’ as I am right now - I know that sounds rather odd but I think trying to generalise makeup use as purely a tool of suppression (as some rather extreme feminists do) is a bit narrow minded at times.

I understand your concerns, but agree with your point in your op, by taking it away you will probably make it into a bigger thing than it is. I imagine she's seeing it as a toy, it's a gift and she's excited to use it. I like your approach of let her play with it and when the enthusiasm dies, perhaps it's put away for a bit (somewhere hard to find!?)
I had quite strong views on guns, but people buy nerf guns and then they want to go to archery parties, I don't know where to draw the line, but for now I'm not encouraging but allowing when elsewhere.

to say that’s it’s make up casting a spell is absolute shit, sorry

Did you read my post on this? I use the word "spell" as an metaphor when talking to my children about the influence which marketing and advertising has on people. I work in marketing, it's something I know a bit about, and have spent quite some time thinking about.

My DS and I have conversations about marketing and how it works, to do with all sorts of products, not only make up.

In my opinion, marketing is a lot like what would be considered magic in the olden days. Think about it, it's about deliberately influencing the behavior of people, often through the power of suggestion, usually without people even being aware it's happening to them.

If you don't like my metaphor, I can't help that, but it works for me.