make up and 6yo DD - what to do?

[resisterpersister]

Please help me deal with this situation!

DD's cousins came to visit yesterday, and gave 6yo DD a make up set. The cousins rarely visit and I didn't feel up to souring the visit by rejecting the gift in front of them. So she spent yesterday with her cousins, covering themselves with make up. She bloody loves it. First thing she did this morning? Put more make up on.

Lots of DD's classmates are allowed to play with make up, but she knows I won't buy it for her. I don't wear it myself. I talk to her in an age appropriate way about why I don't like make up and don't wear it.

If it was up to me, this would never have come in the house! But it's here now. I could just take it away, but I'm worried that'll make it into a huge thing, I'm not sure if that'll achieve anything other than make her want it more and feel she's been treated unjustly (and, oh, do I remember the times I felt my parents were being unjust to me!)

I suppose I could let her play with it for a few days till she forgets about it and then quietly "lose" it. (Is that cowardly?)

I could impose boundaries around it (what?). She's already said she wants to wear it to school every day and I've said errr... no!

We've been talking a bit about why adults wear make up, and I've told her about how if you wear make up every day, it's a bit like it casts a spell on you and you feel you can't go outside without wearing it, and we talked about how much of a pain that would be if her friend came round to ask her to play, but she missed out because she couldn't just leave the house.

What do I do, oh wise FWR women? I want to just throw the bloody thing away, but I'm worried about creating a bigger deal out of it and making it an even greater object of desire!

The age on the box say 5+ . Who makes this stuff FFS?

LassOfFyvie

No I didn't take it that way at all.

Chucking it in with the craft/art supplies (as opposed to keeping it in the bedroom;bathroom/dressing up box) takes an awful lot of its gendered power away...

I can't get too worked up about makeup tbh.

It's definitely marketed heavily but this is probably because it's a huge cash cow rather than for some sinister conspiracy. Beauty treatments have been around for millennia and IME are just an extension of the mating displays conducted by animals to attract partners - except of course it's now become commonplace for our society to want to 'look our best' all the time, likely more through vanity than anything else.

Most girls care more about finding the man of their dreams than rallying against societal norms, and most are more attracted to men who meet typical male beauty standards (muscles, manly features etc) hence why more women fancy Tom Hardy than Jonny Vegas. Not many woman would fancy a wildly unshaven man who didn't use deodorant and farted freely, despite these being natural attributes.

I think there always be some way in which we try and make ourselves more attractive to a mate, and it's not just in this area of our life that we go OTT. I mean, who really needs a Porsche over a Honda Jazz? Do we really need to eat exciting recipes rather than raw vegetables and cooked meat without any sauce? We could all wear grey cloth sacks too.

If we manage to totally abolish make up in our society, then the opposite sex will likely just judge people by their natural characteristics, especially those which display good breeding potential like healthy (slim) physique, symmetrical facial features (indicator of strong genes), height, etc. In many ways, those of us who aren't blessed with these natural attributes will be worse off without being able to 'scrub up' and look our best.

It should be about choice. Having choice. What OP is advocating is removing choice unless it's her choice. That's not better.

Show me where I have advocated removing choice?

Very interesting this how you interpret what I'm saying. You're wrong though, It's not what I'm advocating at all.

I haven't once said to anyone on this thread I think they're personally wrong for wearing make up or shouldn't wear it.

What I'm advocating is thinking critically, understanding the social context and how damaging the culture and application of make up is to women and girls

For comparison, I live in a place with high pollution levels. I have chosen to live there for many reasons. I know it's a risk to my health and my DC too. In general terms it's damaging to the population. Yet other reasons keep me there.

Denying it's damaging isn't going to protect me from it. It's an imperfect choice.

Would you like to "pull up a chair" whilst the irony of that is pointed out to you?
You lost my respect entirely at that point and frankly I couldn't give a shiny shit where you live.

I realise that this will likely go against the beliefs of many on here (as many of the opinions on here contradict mine) but I think setting girls up to eschew any element of beauty standards is likely setting them up to become lonely cat ladies. There are many decent men out there and a visit to most dating sites will evidence a huge number of childless women in their late 30s desperately trying to find a man to procreate with. I think a balance is best personally

Oh jeese.. I can't even...

I haven't once said to anyone on this thread I think they're personally wrong for wearing make up or shouldn't wear it.

whilst you haven't explicitly said it, you most definitely have suggested it.

I am really uneasy about comparing a gift of make-up to a six-year-old child (which fwiw I would also have hated for my dd at that age, although I really enjoy makeup as an adult) with a gift of a golliwog.

I’m not denying that makeup is problematic as part of the network of oppressive things women have to deal with. But imo a golliwog is a much nastier and potentially more directly, personally hurtful item. I don’t presume to know how it might feel for a black person to be confronted with someone handing your child a golliwog and expected to pretend it’s totally fine, but as a scenario it sounds intensely distressing.

A makeup set, even for someone who despises it, is just not inherently on that level. To compare the two comes across like you are using other people’s pain on an unrelated issue to prop up and validate your argument.

(I am concluding based on the fact that you didn’t mention any personal experience of the golliwog issue when you raised it in your earlier posts, that it’s not something you have personally had to deal with. I could of course be wrong, in which case sorry)

DD1 went through a make-up phase at 5yo, she's better at putting on lipstick than me. I tied myself up in knots about it but in the end concluded that as I don't wear makeup, she has a consistent role model to prove it's not necessary and I would treat it like facepaint. Sure enough she lost interest after a couple of weeks.

I was very careful with the language I used, nothing to indicate she was more beautiful with/without makeup, more observation that it made her look different like dressing up does.

whilst you haven't explicitly said it, you most definitely have suggested it

No, you're adding subtext that isn't there.

No, you're adding subtext that isn't there.

No, I'm not. Many people throughout this thread have commented on how you have picked apart people's opinions and don't respect contradicting views, by believing only your view is valid.

No, you're adding subtext that isn't there.

Hmm, I think it is there.

@64sNewName I agree. If you want to over simplify it boils down to that at a stretch - make up might teach you to hate yourself and that gollys might teach you to hate other people and are part of a culture of those who most definitely hate other people.

Meanwhile I hate this argument. Make up free ladies down own feminism anymore than those of us plastered in Benefit and L'Oréal do. Where's the fecking solidarity ffs.

I decided with my dds it was more important to push good female role models than anything else and teach them women have no limitations due to gender. I celebrate with my dds that our close friends are paramedics, police officers, barrister, nurses, teachers, Wrens, hydrographic designers (), social workers, academic drs, judges, you get the idea.

We talk about women in history lots too and I take them to the polling station and lecture them about votes for women. Teaching and modelling feminism is so important imo

A makeup set, even for someone who despises it, is just not inherently on that level. To compare the two comes across like you are using other people’s pain on an unrelated issue to prop up and validate your argument

That articulates very well what I thought about comparing it to a gollywog.

What would you do if a relative bought your child a gift that you thought was wholly inappropriate and based on values you disagreed with

If this is the way you feel about it you would have already taken the make up away from your daughter. This whole post has not been about what you should do but has very much been about telling women they are the wrong kind of feminist if they wear make up.

Bloody hell. I haven't ever worn makeup and I'm nearly 70, but make up is just a toy for children.

I'm a feminism, but not an authoritarian. If you are a feminist you also want to empower your daughter to make her own decisions, including about make up.

I did let my child play with make up, though I didn't let her wear make up outside until she was a teenager and by that time it was up to her.

My dd has also always liked typically feminine things, which I was shocked by as I never did, but liking feminine things doesn't make one any less of a feminist.

This whole post has not been about what you should do but has very much been about telling women they are the wrong kind of feminist if they wear make up

Again, it's interesting this is your take, it's not what I'm saying at all. Nor is it what I think.

I do think women have a very different idea about what feminism is to me, however, if they don't recognise that we're all affected by society's influence in so many ways, don't recognise that the beauty industry perpetuates harmful sexist stereotypes and expoits our vulnerabilities, and don't understand that talking about this and exploring the idea isn't a personal attack on women who wear make up.

Try reading some Simone De Beauvoir; Andrea Dworkin; Germaine Greer.

It's definitely a good idea to read Dworkin on this. Page 116 of Woman Hating, her first feminist book, features a diagram of a woman with almost every external part of her labelled with the beauty standard that particular part is supposed to meet, including eyes requiring mascara, eyeshadow and eyeliner to be acceptable with lips requiring lipstick to meet the same (male) standards. The diagram is titled "Beauty Hurts".

Sheila Jeffrey's Beauty and Misogyny is also very good on the "feminine corvee", the work women have to do to make themselves sexually appealing to men.

OP, you've really hit a nerve here. I'm surprised that people can't tell the difference between a critique of makeup and beauty standards, and a critique of the people (women and girls) who are required to meet those beauty standards.

As a matter of interest I had a look at a men's makeup website, looking for the green lipstick, or any lipstick for that matter. All I could come up with was this:

www.mensmake-up.co.uk/mmuk-man-lip-balm-for-men.html

Quite different from what L'Oreal say, offer for women:

www.loreal-paris.co.uk/products/make-up/lip/lipstick

Anybody who is trying to compare the two is being completely disingenuous.

Thanks to those who've given suggestions. I've been mulling them over.

I'm surprised more people didn't say - why did I let her have it at all? That's what I expected tbh, not having to justify how you can recognise something is problematic on a macro level without it being an attack on individual women and their choices. It's been... erm.. interesting.

We've been away from home. I didn't let DD take the make up set and she accepted that, although she did want to.

I think I'll probably put it in with the dress up, thanks to those who suggested that. Although, this is a good idea too:

Chucking it in with the craft/art supplies (as opposed to keeping it in the bedroom;bathroom/dressing up box) takes an awful lot of its gendered power away...

And I think it may just go quietly missing once she loses interest. I know people think it's just a toy, but I really do think it's indoctrination into the beauty culture.

That was a fabulous photo of a PP's DD with make up used like face paint upthread (now deleted I think?) but that's not how DD is using it. She's got the message that it's about looking pretty, and she took care to put the lip gloss on her lips and shit loads of pink blusher on her cheeks.

I'm not making a big deal about it with her (that's what MN is for) but I really hate that she's 6 and has got the idea that girls spend time on making themselves pretty, despite my best efforts!

DS never worried about this shit. He's 10 and I've never heard him once mention his looks.

OP, you've really hit a nerve here. I'm surprised that people can't tell the difference between a critique of makeup and beauty standards, and a critique of the people (women and girls) who are required to meet those beauty standards

Yes, me too. I'm really surprised.

It feels a bit like arguing with TRAs tbh. eg

Me "trans ideology is sexist and harmful to women and kids"
TRA "you're full of hate and want me to die"
Me "erm, no. I disagree with trans ideology, I think it's harms people. I don't hate you or want you to die"
TRA: "yes you do, you hate me"
Me: "WTF?"

or, on this thread:

Me: "beauty culture is sexist and harmful to women and kids"
PPs: "you're sneering at us and telling us not to wear make up."
Me: "erm, no. I disagree that beauty culture is harmless. I don't have any opinion about the choices you make as an individual"
PPs: "yes you do, you're sneering and you're authoritarian, you're saying we're not allowed to wear make up"
Me: "WTF?"

Lot of angst here.
6 is too young to wear makeup. End of.

I think you're me five years in the future. DD's nursery teacher gives them makeup sometimes and it drives me bats. She says it's "just like face painting" but is also very careful to explain that it's "only for the girls." And just. Ffs.

A golly doesn't teach people to be racist but it's symptomatic of a racist system. A doll with brown skin is not a golly, mostly because we've started trying to address racism on a societal level and the brown-skin doll doesn't perpetuate repellent stereotypes. Makeup doesn't teach girls to be second-class, just like a golly doesn't directly teach racism all on its own, but the way we use it is symptomatic of a toxic patriarchal system which we have not made very much progress on addressing on a societal level. That means it's different than the golly case. If men and women can both use makeup, lovely, that's like having a brown dolly, but that doesn't happen where I've lived. Makeup is basically a women thing. Makeup on a systemic level, hand-in-hand with marketing, perpetuates repellent stereotypes about what constitutes looking good.

I like the "it's craft supplies/it's dressing-up, it's not for school just like the dinosaur suit isn't for school" approach. Must remember that.

If you hadn't come on and compared being given a make up set to being given a golliwog, and been so patronising towards anyone who disagreed with you, perhaps people may have taken you more seriously.