The Times: Scouts earn U-turn badge after scrapping trans policy

[TimeLady]

Andrew Gilligan again. Could this be the turning point?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scouts-earn-u-turn-badge-after-scrapping-trans-policy-w6rnxbflc?shareToken=dc09effc06301868a86f76ddd096ed39

Wow!! Wonderful news!!

What an amazing week or so it's been!! Karen IS at the HofC, Sarah Field's outstanding speech, Meghan's speaking tour and now this!

Well done, women!! You are making HERstory!!

The Scouts have been mixed sex for years now and have plenty of experience of safeguarding on over night camps and trips.

Dd was in the Beavers and Scouts and went on at least 4 camps a year. The safeguarding around sleeping arrangements was always very detailed. Dd was once the only girl on a camp and they had to enlist an older female ranger scout, as they weren’t allowed to have a single female scout sleeping alone.

I’m not surprised they have reviewed their policy and made changes. They have real life experience of safeguarding not hypothetical experience.

This is good news . Although I hope that website gets updated soon!

One can only hope girl guides follow suit now. Rest assured I have emails. So should they deny anyone ever pointed anything out. Or when something happens and they act all confused as they were told ", will never happen" there are plenty here who have proof otherwise.

And yy to 1984. Definitely one of us

The Scouts have changed their policy regarding telling parents/authorities about transpeople, and adding sex to their equal opportunities policy, not somehow not allowing transpeople in. I don't get what's changed, aside from sensibly informing parents of a child being trans?

This is not some "protecting male spaces" gotcha. Transmen (as in people born women) aren't being excluded from the Scouts. The Scouts are just not hiding things from their parents now. If GG followed the exact same new "policy changes", they'd still be admitting transwomen (as in people born male) into GG.

i.e. so the people saying "I hope the website gets updated soon" - me too, but it'll only be updated to add "sex" to the list of protected characteristics. They're not going to change any of the trans stuff, because their policy hasn't changed aside from not calling girls girls and boys boys, and not telling parents about trans kids. They're not going to change any of the other stuff on the website, because they're still allowing them access to toilets of their choice etc.

Puresummer I am also not convinced that the Scouts are going to change anything other than those things that you have stated. It will be interesting to see what their new policy does say once it is up on their website.

Girlguiding have no intention of changing anything. They are still trying to ignore the impact that their policy will have on the inclusion of vulnerable (abused) girls who have previously benefited significantly from a single-sex girls' organisation. Girlguiding also seem to believe that they can manage the psychological harm to these girls that may well occur, despite the fact that they seem to have little understanding of their needs or situation.

They're not going to change any of the other stuff on the website, because they're still allowing them access to toilets of their choice etc.

Will they not have to tell parents that this is the case though?

I thought some of their guidence was pretty sensible, like trans kids sharing with their friends! That is what works best I think.

So DD1 best friend sleeps with her even though their are now different "genders"

And by gender I don't mean sex

I'm one of the scout leaders who have repeatedly written the HQ about these policy's.

Until they remove advice about enabling chest binders etc I won't be letting this drop.

Scouts is a mixed sex group and their training and safeguarding is very sensible around dealing with mixed sexes overnight etc except all that goes out the window in the trans policy and it is totally at odds with safeguarding.

I've pointed this out and been politely fobbed off with - we are reviewing these policies.
I've asked them not to point leaders to mermaids and stonewall for advice.

This 'change' is lip service and not good enough.

I think this is good news and will enable Guides to similarly review their policies (I hope).
Provided sensible and appropriate guidelines are in place and followed, the inclusion of children who are trans or gender questioning need not be a problem.

I'm a scout leader, and one of those who complained to them about the old guidance.

What's on the website now is the new guidance....there are still problems with it but it has changed quite a lot from what it was .

Key things they've changed:

• removed the idea of "true gender" and normalisation of breast binding and discussion of two year olds being diagnosed
• more cautious 'accomodation' and recognition of uncertainty rather than assuming necessary social transition
• removed "complete confidentiality"..more emphasis on safeguarding
• removed presentation of parents as "supportive" only if the affirm. more discussion of working with parents
• more recognition of other children's bodily privacy as a legitimate concern. Previous guidance said 'ideally' trans identifying children should use cubicles with children of the opposite sex. New guidance pits more emphasis on individual unisex options
• removed mermaids logo and "partnership" and instruction to "refer to organisations such as Mermaids'. Still gives link to Mermaids but it's much downplayed

Thank you for clarifying Maya. I am glad that it is an improvement on the old guidance, however imo it still does not meet the needs of other children and it still leaves children who are identifying as transgender, outside of an appropriate safeguarding framework.

Well done though, to all of you that have managed achieve these significant changes.

I've written a thing for Transgender Trend about the changes they've made t.co/U7J0u3kUJV?amp=1 ....when you see how bad the original policy was you can see how far they've travelled (and how much organisations that have taken advice from Mermaids and Gendered Intelligence etc need to do their own homework )

That's real progress Maya - many congratulations.
The levels of misinformation, gaslighting and guilt tripping by trans lobby groups has been incredible to see. Unpicking this and centring the needs of children rather than these adults seeking validation will take some time and it's going to be in small steps like this.

There is a current thread on 1st fb scout group for any other leaders wanting to join the discussion. The Scots councillor has already waded I'm crying t£&@
link

Well done Maya. Great work!

A cub leader reading 1st Facebook Scouts.. I think some people are being deliberately blind.

And they're mainly male
It's tough going, banging your head on a brick wall would be more productive.

There is a current thread on 1st fb scout group

I've just read some of that. Do those people really think it's possible to change sex? Or are they just a bunch of misogynists who are trying to keep the uppity women in their place?

The thread on First FB Scouts is quite disturbing

Promising children "complete confidentiality" is a safeguarding breach but so many so ready to jump on someone who raised it, and try to get them banned!

There are some bizarre comments on there, like this one:

From the article "...Many of these children will grow up to reconciled with their healthy bodies and many will be gay and lesbian adults". Personally I see this causing more issues than it resolves

So this person thinks letting a child grow up to be happy with their body and possibly gay or lesbian causes more issues than a lifetime of medication and surgery. Homophobic and insane.

And this one:

I’ve had a young person in one of my sections before who was transgender and who strongly felt they ‘were in the wrong body’... And talking to the young persons parents was a non-starter as they insisted the young person was ‘in the right body’.

So do they think that people can literally be 'in the wrong body'? And that they can change sex?

And lots of them saying 'trans girls are girls - they should sleep with the girls'.

Biology denial, homophobia, misogyny. It's all there.

I admire you for trying to reason with them, Maya, but I think they're a lost cause. They seem to have closed their minds to reason and reality. It's quite telling that they don't engage with you, just resort to name calling and accusations of transphobia.

I would be tempted to ask them for their definition of 'woman', though.

One of the posters on that fb thread seems to be gregor Murray the councillor (snp?) who was suspended for swearing at women on social media. They're a scout leader.

Mainly for the lurkers oldcrone 😁

Think it's been deleted now, will wait and see if the one threatening me with reporting to TSA as unsuitable to be a leader as I don't believe TWAW follows through.