The Times: Scouts earn U-turn badge after scrapping trans policy

[TimeLady]

Andrew Gilligan again. Could this be the turning point?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scouts-earn-u-turn-badge-after-scrapping-trans-policy-w6rnxbflc?shareToken=dc09effc06301868a86f76ddd096ed39

That'll be an interesting one, Pantah. Will they throw out the heretics who don't believe in the genderist faith? I really couldn't believe what I was reading on there. 'Trans girls are girls', and any girl who objects to sharing accommodation with a girl with a penis is a bigot. I assume nobody posting that stuff is a parent of daughters.

I've carefully avoided discussing my views on social media after what happened to the guider.
I do however discuss it with my explorers, other leaders and parents.

They trust me to keep their kids safe and the contradictory trans policy did not to that.

1st Facebook is like AIBU it can get very aggressive, people forget that it isn't just a UK group and that scouting around the world is very different. Also there a parents and scouts on that group too not just leaders.

I feel a bit better after the clarification but still not enough to let it drop completely- also my emails haven't been responded to. It would have been nice for a little 'just to let you know that we heard your concerns and you weren't alone so this is what we've done. I knew nothing about the changes before I found a post here!

I think I've been removed from and blocked from the group 🙄

There's so much of this debate I don't understand...
Would a transgirl want to share a communal changing room/showers with girls? Or a transboy with boys, highlighting the difference?
How can you keep it a secret from the group? Don't the kids talk to each other?
Wouldn't the medical needs be different? Different equipment needed maybe?

Have they removed the whole thread, Maya? I just went back to look at it again (don't know why, because it made pretty horrifying reading), and I got an error message. I can't see it from the group's main page (but I'm not very good with facebook, so it might just be me).

I think I've been blocked from the group altogether oldcrone and I suspect they've removed the thread

Gregor Murray (the suspended councillor in Dundee) was saying that terfs are scum over and over again on that thread.

Seemed awfully upset at the prospect of the re-tightening of safeguarding for children within Scouts.

Don't think he articulated why exactly.

The thread disappeared around 6/7 this morning.

Gregor Murray (the suspended councillor in Dundee) was saying that terfs are scum over and over again on that thread.

And someone on there linked to this page

I found that Facebook thread very concerning. It is shocking that some of the people on that thread are scout leaders and in charge of safeguarding the welfare of our children. I am so sorry that you have been treated like this Maya.

Omg I bowed out at 11ish after the constant call to tell them where I'm a leader and which section. It was very hectoring and bullying then, no idea it had escalated further. When I looked this morning it had gone and all notifications had disappeared. Just checked and am still a member but Maya has disappeared. There were a lot of people, mainly male, purporting to be in the UK Scout movement commenting. Please tell me you got the screen shots beforehand Maya.

Maya please let us know if the SA tries to discipline you in anyway. I'll back you.
I do suspect that there were people in that post who have nothing to do with scouts

iknowenough I really hope that most of those have nothing to do with Scouts, however Gregor Murray who was on their definitely claims to have quite a lot to do with Scouts. I am glad that the Scouting HQ have been listening to the concerns of leaders like Maya though.

I was always under the impression that the majority were Scout leaders, it's very worrying, so much rampant misogyny.

It was a bit of an eye opener, usually the most controversial thing you can do on there is put a badge on a uniform in the wrong place.

I wonder what policies the traditional Scout groups have about trans etc.

Gregor Murray is still a member and that is not right

Gregor murray is such a vile man.

My kids have had some lovely scout leaders. I feel sorry for his unit.

A step in the right direction. Well done Maya!

Letter in the Sunday Times (no paywall) ,www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/trans-ideology-is-damaging-children-k5nlhwmc8

120 signatures!

That letter is paywalled. Anyone have a sharetoken?

I can't see it. Who is the letter from?

I don't think a list of the signators would breach copyright so:
Dr Debbie Hayton, teacher and transsexual campaigner
Dr Heather Brunskell-Evans, philosopher and social theorist
Professor Michele Moore, University of Essex
Professor Richard Byng, University of Plymouth
Julie Bindel, journalist and feminist campaigner
Graham Linehan, writer and director
Lyn Alderson
Lynne Alderson, retired equal opportunities advisor
Dr Sophie Allen, Keele University
Cllr Lynne Anderson, North Lanarkshire Council
Julie Armstrong, parent
Beth Aze, parent
Jonathan Best, former director Queer Up North, writer and activist
Dr Michael Biggs, University of Oxford
Alice Bondi, retired psychotherapist
Laura Briggs, teacher
Rosie Brocklehurst
Cllr Amy Brookes, Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council
Trinia Budge, ForWomenScotland
Cllr Lynne Caffrey, Gateshead Council
Marion Calder, ForWomenScotland
Beatrix Campbell OBE, writer
Dr Damian Clifford, consultant psychiatrist, Cornwall
Samantha Coleman, grandparent
Ruth Conlock, Social Worker
Stephanie Davies-Arai, Transgender Trend
Charlotte Delaney, writer and parent
Cathy Devine, independent researcher and parent
Fay Donnelly, artist and rad fem activist
James Dreyfus, actor
Dr Fiona English, writer, academic and parent
Professor Debbie Epstein, University of Roehampton
Simon Fanshawe, co-founder Stonewall and broadcaster
Maya Forstater, Cub Scout Leader
Professor Rosa Freedman, University of Reading
Jennifer Garnett, parent
Helen Gibson, ex-Labour Councillor and parent
Esther Giles, Labour Party activist and parent
Claire Graham, intersex advocate;
Judith Green, co-founder Woman’s Place UK
Jess Goldie, family & children’s worker and parent
J Gourley, former teacher
Kay Green, publisher
Emma Grover, child safeguarding officer
Kristina Harrison, political campaigner
Lin Harwood, retired social work lecturer
Dr Stephanie Hayton, teacher
Rebecca Heath, teacher and governor
Dr Alicia Hendley, clinical psychologist (retired) and author
Sian Henry, parent and school governor
Louise Hersee
Seven Hex, transsexual blogger
Dr Emma Hilton, University of Manchester
Sarah Honeychurch, University of Glasgow
Dr Chloë Houston, University of Reading
Dr EM, University of Cambridge
Karen Ingala Smith, service provider for women and children subjected to sexual and domestic violence
Bev Jackson, founding member Gay Lib Front
Sarah Jay, feminist campaigner
Kate Jerrold, parent
Diane Jones, retired social policy researcher
Dr Jane Clare Jones, writer and philosopher
Helen Joyce, journalist
Rae Kelcou, intersex advocate and writer
Cllr Leigh Kirton, Gateshead Council
Olly Lambert, documentary filmmaker
Dr Mary Leng, University of York
Amanda Lesiatoi, parent
Lisa Marchiano, Jungian analyst
Lucy Masoud, pupil barrister and trade unionist
Dr Susan Matthews, University of Roehampton
Dr Julie Maxwell, parent, paediatrician and school governor
Lily Maynard, parent and writer
Cllr Caroline McAllister, West Dunbartonshire Council
Joan McAlpine MSP
Dr Ruth McGinity, UCL Institute of Education
Matesa McKeefery, parent
Dr Louise Moody, University of York
Lewis, Lord Moonie
Catherine Muller, parent and grandparent
Dr Kath Murray, University of Edinburgh
Tish Naughton, parent
Stella O’Malley, psychotherapist and writer
Juliet Oosthuysen, parent
Fionne Orlander, transsexual campaigner
Deborah Orr, writer
Anya Palmer, barrister
Gill Parke, business support in children’s social services
Rebecca Pennington, parent
Professor Jo Phoenix, Chair in Criminology, The Open University
Dr Eva Poen, University of Exeter
Sonia Poulton, journalist and broadcaster
Veronica Quilligan, teacher, actor and parent
Mo Quinn, social worker, trade unionist and parent
Gwenan Richards, SOAS, University of London
Julia Diana Robertson, journalist and author
Abigail Rowland, poet and former teacher
Helen Saxby, writer and campaigner
Professor Sophie Scott, UCL
Ruth Serwotka, co-founder Woman’s Place UK;
Susan Sinclair, Women’s Rights Campaigner, Scottish Women
Jennifer Smith, former scout leader and parent
Susan Smith, ForWomenScotland
Tracey Smith, concerned lesbian
Patricia Spencer BEM, retired nurse and NHS board non-executive director
Professor Kathleen Stock, University of Sussex
Professor Judith Suissa, UCL Institute of Education
Professor Alice Sullivan, UCL
Holly Sutherland, Labour Party activist
Kim Thomas, journalist
Professor Selina Todd, University of Oxford
Isabelle Tracy, artist
Dianne Vine, parent and grandparent
Annie Gwillym Walker, community volunteer, parent and grandparent
Helen Watts, former leader at Girlguiding UK
Rod Webb, journalist
Dr Victoria Whitworth, writer and parent
Dr Nicola Williams, Fair Play For Women
Robert Withers, Jungian psychoanalyst
Alison Wren, retired biology teacher, parent and grandparent
Miriam Yagud, retired teacher
Miranda Yardley, accountant
Tania Ziegler, teacher and trade unionist

Thank you to everyone who organised this and signed it- really impressive list and numbers of signatories there, excellent reality- focused points being made (from what I saw in front of paywall.)

I would only add for anyone when referring to chest ‘binding’ (a massively underplaying euphemism) for a general audience, that some Times readers won’t know what’s involved in this.

This is nothing like wearing a tight sports bra- nor like wearing a waist trainer nor Victorian corset. Given the obvious dangers from ‘binding’ of restricting the ribcage and cutting off the blood supply to breast tissue by crushing it and dangers of compressing any area of skin long term-it’s important to qualify ‘binding’ mentions with details of the health impacts wherever possible.

I’m not sure everyone will otherwise know about the permanent damage to breast tissue, skin damage, skeletal issues and the restrictions on doing any kind of heart and lung-exerting exercise while wearing these bearing in mind risk of fainting and of ribs breaking. Future options for breast feeding and having normal healthy breasts are closed off. Yet kids can order these things off the internet and schools allow them to wear them (or don’t feel they have the power to stop it).

We need to urge our MPs to call on the government to change the law in the UK to ban binders and reclassify them as medical devices only available on prescription and with medical advice, supervision and follow up check ups.

There are awful accounts and pictures on the internet of what happens after long term use of chest binders if anyone needs to confirm any of this. The medical dangers of compressing any part of the body long term are well documented in published medical journals. This is not trivial or temporary physical inconvenience- there is nowhere else for breast tissue to move to so the body can’t adapt to accommodate this. this is painful and permanent damage we are talking about. Other types of self harm equipment are not sanctioned in this way for young girls.

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Maya - that sharetoken link is taking me to twitter and prompts for sign in. I don’t have an account. (Thank you though.)