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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Mermaids response to piece in Mail tomorrow

574 replies

EweSurname · 25/05/2019 16:14

Looking forward to seeing what drops

www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/press-enquiry-from-the-mail-on-sunday-25th-may-2019.html

We are very proud of the training we offer to schools and we have a proven record of helping teachers to support vulnerable children who simply want to get along with their lessons like any of their classmates.

We are disappointed to find that a school governor has made a covert recording of our training because our presentations are not held in secret and all of the scientific and legal information we offer is publicly available and well-tested.

We are surprised to see that a Church of England rector is complaining about our training when we are included in the CoE guidance on support for transgender people, which can be found here.

Part of the work of Mermaids is giving training talks to schools. These talks are well received and are an important part of how we promote an inclusive and informed approach to trans children and those who support them.

We have been contacted by the Mail on Sunday who are doing an article about one such talk. This post is our response, in accordance with our policy of posting our replies to media queries for the benefit of anyone interested in our activities.

OP posts:
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7
camaleon · 02/06/2019 12:22

"If you mean do we deny that anyone can be born in the wrong body, then too fucking right we do. I categorically demy that this is possible.

Have I answered your question?"
No, you haven't. Trans people do exist. You may think it would be better if they didn't. Most trans will not say they were 'born in the wrong body'. They are forced to explain what being trans means and they can't without parading on stereotypes. It is a fact. Like I cannot explain what being 'Italian' means but many persons feels strongly Italian/Indian/whatever even if they are not in the country.

OldCrone · 02/06/2019 12:24

There is no way of explaining gender identity or any other identity without stereotypes. This does not mean that identities are irrelevant and that sometimes you are FORCED to adopt one just to belong to the society you live in and enjoy certain rights.

I don't have a gender identity. What rights do I not have as a result? Should I think about getting one in order to 'enjoy certain rights'? Should I just choose one, or are there any restrictions on what 'gender identity' I can have?

camaleon · 02/06/2019 12:25

Thank you for the example OldCrone. It is still very exceptional and as lots of the language that is being tested to address gender identity it sounds stupid and something that I very much doubt is here to stay.

camaleon · 02/06/2019 12:29

OldCrone,

Biological male who identify as women or viceversa and non-binary people must find a space in a society where many essential services are divided by sex. You conform with that division and it is not a problem for you. If we don't find ways to accommodate them, they are excluded and I think personally this is wrong. I don't need to understand what being trans is, more than I don't understand what being religious means.

Datun · 02/06/2019 12:29

Of course stereotypes exist. FWR talks about them all the time. The impact, expectations, dismantlement, enforcement, etc.

The point is that they do not dictate your sex.

OldCrone · 02/06/2019 12:32

Like I cannot explain what being 'Italian' means but many persons feels strongly Italian/Indian/whatever even if they are not in the country.

Someone who says they're Italian will be someone who was born there and/or has Italian parents and/or has Italian citizenship. If they say they're Italian just because they like going to Tuscany on holiday, they're a fantasist. A bit like a man who says he's a woman because he likes wearing dresses and lipstick.

OldCrone · 02/06/2019 12:36

Biological male who identify as women or viceversa and non-binary people must find a space in a society where many essential services are divided by sex.

We all have a sex. A man who 'identifies as a woman' hasn't changed sex. Non-binary people have a sex (I think they even say the non-binary refers to their gender). Their space is where they belong according to their biological sex, not their self-defined gender.

You conform with that division and it is not a problem for you.

You know nothing about me.

OldCrone · 02/06/2019 12:38

I don't need to understand what being trans is

Really? When the whole of society is being rearranged around the needs and wants of trans people, you don't feel you need to know anything about it?

camaleon · 02/06/2019 12:38

I have said this before OldCrone. Some objective criteria must exist to identify with any social construct. And States are a social construct no doubt. We know they have not always been there and can disappear again.

As I said too, the 'test' to identify with a sex-category comes with negative reactions from the majority. If people were as invested in knowing the test foreigners or their children must pass to 'prove' they can identify as 'British' they would also find it outrageous. Learning how Henry the VIII got rid of his wives is a guaranteed topic in the examination. And no matter how much some may try, some people will tell us that we 'cannot buy ourselves into an ethnicity' because as we all know 'ethnicity' is not a social construct. And the 'British ethnicity' is in our biology or something.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 02/06/2019 12:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

camaleon · 02/06/2019 12:40

And most trans people wan a different 'ID', a document that identifies them as man or woman. As I may want a British passport whether or not others think I am or not British.

insidev · 02/06/2019 12:40

An estimated 80% of males who identify as female do not have any surgery. This is why the idea of "lady dick" is around, but for the most part it's assumed, not discussed. It's "I am a woman with a penis", rather than "I want to be more like a woman so I will remove that body part."

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 02/06/2019 12:41

You conform with that division and it is not a problem for you

We do not conform to those stereotypes of gender, we do however all have a sex.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 02/06/2019 12:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 02/06/2019 12:43

And most trans people wan a different 'ID', a document that identifies them as man or woman. As I may want a British passport whether or not others think I am or not British.

So what?

camaleon · 02/06/2019 12:45

I have mainly used nationality Spartacus or belonging to minorities such as travellers/Kurdish/etc. Religion would fit in for me too (and I know not for others). I am really not sure about race; many black people would identify with 'African-descent', some idea of race/ethnicity. But you are right there is a difference. I am trying to articulate my ideas without entering exactly the same straight jacket where it is impossible to put forward questions without first aligning yourself with some radical stance.

Datun · 02/06/2019 12:45

I mean honestly. Someone wants a different mark on their birth certificate, so women have to put up with rapists in female prisons, men beating women in sport, the erosion of all their spaces and rights?

Absolute nonsense argument.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 02/06/2019 12:46

So there is something 'essential' about being British? Or Maori New Zealander?

Is this a serious question. Being Māori is not an ‘identity’ that you can opt to be or take a test for. That would be incredibly insulting to suggest, just like for any other ‘race’ or ethnicity. You are born into your ethnicity. It’s biological. It’s not a social construct. Transracialism is as offensive as transgenderism, a fantasy and a lie.

I have sat the British test for indefinite leave to remain and citizenship, that does not make me British. It means I can have the right to live here, and is taken to show you are invested in the country to a reasonable extent, that you understand the culture you’re asking to be an indefinite guest of. It isn’t a ‘prove you’re British identity’ test.

camaleon · 02/06/2019 12:47

OldCrone, we all have a sex. Society is segregated by sex. I would prefer much less segregation. Others would prefer more. What do you do with transpeople?

JessicaWakefieldSV · 02/06/2019 12:47

A British passport does not mean you’re British. You can have dual citizenship for NZ & UK, you can feel at home in both places. You won’t however change your genetic makeup just because you physically moved to a different country.

Do I really need to explain this?

Datun · 02/06/2019 12:47

we all have a sex. Society is segregated by sex. I would prefer much less segregation. Others would prefer more. What do you do with transpeople?

You've just answered your own question. We all have a sex

JessicaWakefieldSV · 02/06/2019 12:48

What do you do with transpeople?

They also have a biological sex and they should be subject to the same rules as everyone else.

camaleon · 02/06/2019 12:48

Jessica, if you think ethnicity is biological, there is no point continuing this conversation because I will never agree with this as much as I would (and I actually do) fight for minority rights that are identity-based (but trans is not my field at all).

JessicaWakefieldSV · 02/06/2019 12:49

Like I cannot explain what being 'Italian' means

Well you might have trouble but most of us know exactly what that means.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 02/06/2019 12:50

You don’t have to agree. It’s fact. Feel free to stop commenting on that anytime.