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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

We've never believed in silencing debate....

148 replies

truthisarevolutionaryact · 23/05/2019 08:09

says the Scottish trans alliance ... in an article explaining why Meghan Murphy should not have been allowed to speak to the Scottish parliament. Confused Apparently they believe in "honest constructive discussions" - as long as people use their allowed language, adhere to their beliefs and accept their false views of history and reality.

It's frightening how little self awareness they have.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-people-and-feminists-should-be-working-together-thdfslkz3?shareToken=734ba5639a43cba8820da78716b8ad76

OP posts:
tempytemp · 23/05/2019 08:48

accessing services and answering census forms according to their lived sex, not their birth sex. This is not harmful.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what is a "lived sex"?

RobinMoiraWhite · 24/05/2019 07:55

Hopefully this marks the start of a new era of respectful, accurate reporting of trans issues by The Times, without hyperbole and scare tactics and also an era in which respect between all women can become the default position for all.

donquixotedelamancha · 24/05/2019 08:02

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what is a "lived sex"?

As a short person who bosses people around as if I were 2m tall, I hate it when people don't acknowledge my lived height. Not asking me to get things for them from the top shelf is literal violence.

I imagine lived sex is things like when a transman stands at a urinal to pee. Doubtless some bigots would complain when their feet get wet.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 24/05/2019 08:03

Hopefully this marks the start of a new era of respectful, peaceful conversation where TRAs no longer threaten, punch or harass women who want to meet and discuss issues that pertain to their rights and no longer spread smears and lies about organisations set up to fight for and protect women and girls.

DpWm · 24/05/2019 08:06

Christ, that's a really bitchy article.

Trousering · 24/05/2019 08:31

A new era? 🤔

DpWm · 24/05/2019 08:51

We're slowly seeing the end if the "No Debate" era, (or have I imagined that?) which has so far been the only way for trans ideology to get through, more debate, more truth!
No one believes TWAW really, especially after more than one second of debate, this Times article is another helpful peak-trans job imo.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 24/05/2019 09:02

Hmm. This article could never be described as 'accurate reporting' and it's certainly not respectful to appropriate women's identity or to remove their sex based rights. But at least the demands that Meghan Murphy is silenced and that society accepts a solely trans dominant view of the world is not accompanied by threats and spitting vitriol so that makes a pleasant change.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 24/05/2019 09:25

Trans people and feminists should be working together

How could any feminist with an understanding that gender is a hierarchy designed to keep women in their place work with people who believe that gender is innate and edifying?

Which is not to say that I would stop trans people existing (ffs) any more than I'd try to stop fundamentalist Christians existing. It's fine for people to hold seriously misguided beliefs as long as they don't seek to harm me.

But why would I work with them?

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 24/05/2019 09:31

How could any feminist work with people who defend the rights of rapists to be housed in women's prisons too? And the rights of serial sexual harassers to harass young teenage girls?

lucasthecat · 24/05/2019 09:34

RobinMoiraWhite - respect between all women surely more pertinently respect between all women and all men including those men who believe, wish or think they are actually women or at some point in the future will transform into women with or without the use of drugs, surgery or science

Or to put it another way Is it possible to have a new era respectful debate with me - if my view is - Trans Women are and will always be Men

OldCrone · 24/05/2019 09:36

Trans people and feminists should be working together

Taking the position that gender is a harmful social construct is not denying the existence of trans people or saying that they shouldn't have rights.

Insisting that TWAW denies the existence of the class of people who are female. Denying the existence of female humans removes rights from that group of people.

How can feminists work with people who want to remove rights from women and girls?

2rebecca · 24/05/2019 09:38

There were still several people going on the Scotland Tonight twitter page last night to say that they thought Meghan shouldn't be on TV and that we shouldn't be debating TRAs demands, just agreeing to them all.

R0wantrees · 24/05/2019 10:01

says the Scottish trans alliance ... in an article explaining why Meghan Murphy should not have been allowed to speak to the Scottish parliament

James Morton is a manager at Scottish Trans Alliance.
www.scottishtrans.org/about-us/who-we-are/

James Morton has had a huge influence in writing of policies affecting all scottish schoolchildren as well as all female prisoners in Scotland to name but two areas.

Morton does not have experience in Safeguarding, Education, Social Care or criminal justice.

Last year Morton was a speaker at Jane Fae's TRA conference, 'We're Still Here'

TheHarpySings reported from the day:
(extract)
6) GETTING THE GRA WE WANT

This was a workshop with 3 experts sitting with groups and talking through activism. They were:

Helen Belcher (Lib Dems, Trans Media Watch)
James Morton (Scottish Transgender Alliance)
Alex Moore (GenderJam). Moore is from N Ireland.

James Morton gave some insight into tactics the TRAs will probably start using in England and Wales as they were successful in Scotland.

He said the TRAs need to build allies in mainstream women and children’s organisations so it looks like they care about them.

He also said what worked in Scotland's was a “constructive, friendly, innocent” tone when debating or in dialogue with the GC side. To be mindful about who is watching- essentially like what we do with the lurkers on the FWR board. To make the TRAs look like the reasonable side.

James also said that in dialect with elected officials, to clarify that the trans side aren’t silencing anyone but want to clarify the misconceptions being bandied around by GC feminists.

The Scottish GRA changes will probably be put forward in the 2019-2020 parliamentary year.

Belcher has been meeting with MPs and members of the House of Lords. Most of them don’t really understand the GRA and don’t have much time to think about it thanks to the Brexit FUBAR. “Education” of law makers is needed and that’s what Belcher is doing.

Apparently the TRAs lack the infrastructure they had in the 1990s and early 2000s so they need to think carefully and coordinate.

Belcher said to re-iterate to MPs that the EA2010 is not being affected and no one is losing any rights (wtf).

Apparently in terms of political support, the Tories are split about 50/50, Labour, Lib Dem's and SNP are all onside. The Greens were NOT mentioned.

The big fear on the TRA side is that this Government won’t survive long enough to get this through- again because Brexit.

According to Alex Moore, Arlene Foster of the DUP went to a Pink News event and didn’t seem to know much about this. In NI no one really cares about the trans issues because everyone is focused on same sex marriage and abortion.

Alex then moaned about the Together for Yes campaign’s transmisogyny and that the campaign completely erased the experiences of trans and NB people who need abortions. Alex would like a legal change of gender to be free of charge and as easy as changing your name.

Helen Belcher was annoyed at GC feminists using “emotive arguments” regards rape.

HB said that the pile ons pro self-ID MPs get from the GC side if they say something supportive of the trans side are not helping the GC cause. Maria Miller told Belcher that MPs got loads of abuse in the run up to marriage equality and that abusive messages, tweets from GC feminists will only harden MPs against the GC side.

HB also said something snide about “mouthy” female Labour MPs who speak before thinking on Twitter- especially on a Friday or Saturday night after they’ve had a few drinks.

Apparently the TRAs have civil service support and that the Stonewall report and Gov survey are strong bits of evidence they have which is helping them win arguments.

They are saying there is no risk to reforming the GRA and are asking MPs “what is the risk?”

In the group I was in they also talked about how changing your gender multiple times should be allowed and shouldn’t be seen as “bad intentions”.

James Morton talked about how they can get rid of “gender” markers on things like IT systems and places where it isn’t relevant- apparently GDPR might be able to help them here.

JM’s campaigning tips were to gain trust in the local community- and to approach moderate feminists, “correct misconceptions and forgive any ignorance they may have displayed”. They want to gain trust and make themselves likeable.

Apparently small acts like helping to campaign about period poverty or retweeting the local branch of Women’s Aid will make a difference and result in some reciprocation. They want to make it look like they care about Women's issues so they don’t appear threatening" (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

R0wantrees · 24/05/2019 10:06

Bex Stinson (Head of Trans Equality Stonewall) explained publically how Scottish transactivists had been so successful at the Westminster Social Policy Forum, 'Where Next for Trans Equality'

Pratchet (who attended) wrote Fri 29-Jun-18:

"Well they'll know it's over. Bex Stinson was asked how they got Scotland to cave so quickly and said it was because they had private conversation in private rooms with the people who provide services, not people who use them. I mean, that's how brazen and confident they were, to come out and say that and not think there's anything bad about it. That is over. Women are watching."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3268237-Westminster-Social-Policy-forum-today-Next-steps-for-transgender-Equality-WSPFEvents?pg=2

JessicaWakefieldSV · 24/05/2019 10:15

Hopefully this marks the start of a new era of respectful, peaceful conversation where TRAs no longer threaten, punch or harass women who want to meet and discuss issues that pertain to their rights and no longer spread smears and lies about organisations set up to fight for and protect women and girls.

^ yes.

WhatTheWatersShowedMe · 24/05/2019 10:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhatTheWatersShowedMe · 24/05/2019 11:02

Sorry, double posting to fix the bold etc

From the article:
"Ms Murphy has no experience with the reality of trans inclusion in single-sex spaces in Scotland."
What Murphy does have vast amount of experience in is watching how the creep of trans inclusion in her home country has meant women's rape crisis shelters are defunded, women are raped and assaulted in homeless shelters; and women can be hauled in front of a kangaroo court... I mean, Human Right's Tribunal for refusing to wax the hairy testicles of a big fat paedophile who thinks he looks pretty in makeup. Murphy is being targeted by a TRA in a position of political influence who would like her thrown in prison for stating scientific fact.

"This country’s mainstream women’s organisations have first-hand expertise in safely running refuges and counselling services where trans people have been included for nearly a decade. They tell us that trans inclusion is not a problem. The organisers of this event have repeatedly dismissed these expert opinions and instead have chosen to inflame controversy rather than constructively advance discussion. "

The reason you're told trans-inclusion is "not a problem" in Scottish refuges and counselling services is because it is a condition of their funding- the following is a quote from a report by TheHarpySings from a LibDem conference in Brighton in 2018:

^]"Emma Ritch:
How do we reconcile feminist and trans understandings of rights. In Scotland VAWG orgs have to be inclusive as a condition of funding. We have trust and strong relationship with Scottish Transgender Alliance. "^

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399104-Times-Lib-Dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-Natalie-Bird-Article-refers-to-Zoe-OConnell-Sarah-Brown?pg=5

R0wantrees · 24/05/2019 11:14

Here's Bekky Kaufman the writer of the Times opinion piece and representative of Scottish Trans Alliance:

twitter.com/ScotlandTonight/status/1131665492446461959

R0wantrees · 24/05/2019 11:22

"This country’s mainstream women’s organisations have first-hand expertise in safely running refuges and counselling services where trans people have been included for nearly a decade. They tell us that trans inclusion is not a problem. The organisers of this event have repeatedly dismissed these expert opinions and instead have chosen to inflame controversy rather than constructively advance discussion. "

Joan McAlpine response to a senior person (who is a male transperson) in VAW Scottish sector (manager of a rape crisis centre):
twitter.com/JoanMcAlpine/status/1131472778228637696

see also
twitter.com/mridul_wadhwa/status/1131487046646816768

We've never believed in silencing debate....
RobinMoiraWhite · 24/05/2019 11:45

I have respectful debates about difficult discrimination concepts and the clash of protected rights virtually every working day. But it won’t be respectful if, when speaking or writing about me, you call me, as a trans woman, ‘he’ or deny my right to use the facilities society has decided I should have, such as my right to use the bathroom of my affirmed gender should I visit premises under your control?

How would that be different to the position adopted by a certain regime in Germany in the 1930’s that black athletes were held to be sub-human and should not be competing against white athletes?

There is an old expression. You make peace with your enemies, not your friends. Society has had to work out how to balance the gay/religious clash, and that is likely always to be uncomfortable as recent news about a school In Birmingham shows.

Trans and gender-critical is a similar clash of diametrically opposed views and we have to find a way to live on the same little island. That won’t happen by either side attempting to deny the existence of the opposing view or treating each other with the contempt, intolerance and confusion between fact and opinion reflected rather too frequently on pages such as these.

Off air now for several hours.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 24/05/2019 11:54

Hopefully this marks the start of a new era of respectful, peaceful conversation where TRAs no longer threaten, punch or harass women who want to meet and discuss issues that pertain to their rights and no longer spread smears and lies about organisations set up to fight for and protect women and girls.

Indeed.

RobinMoiraWhite, to write an article that starts by claiming that they have no wish to silence debate and then spend literally the rest of the article complaining that Meghan Murphy was allowed to speak makes the Scottish Trans Alliance look dishonest, even outright ludicrous.

To speak of an era in which respect between all women can become the default position for all brushes over the inconvenient fact that some of those "women" are men. The TRA "all girls together schtick really doesn't wash". At all.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/05/2019 11:55

They want to gain trust and make themselves likeable.

Not going so well really, so far.

lucasthecat · 24/05/2019 12:00

RobinMoiraWhite out of politeness and wanting to be a decent human -, I would call you Moira or any other name you wish - I would do everything in my power to stop you suffering any discrimination or bullying and hope I would intervene if I saw you being targeted or picked on - you have exactly the same rights as me or my loved ones - However my firm belief based on science and logic if you are a Trans Women - then you are male/a man - and no clothes chemicals surgery or legislation will change that.

JackyHolyoake · 24/05/2019 12:06

"But it won’t be respectful if, when speaking or writing about me, you call me, as a trans woman, ‘he’ or deny my right to use the facilities society has decided I should have, such as my right to use the bathroom of my affirmed gender should I visit premises under your control? "

No such right exists. The Equality Act 2010 is clear about that via Schedule 3 [Services and public functions: exceptions], Part 7 [Separate, single and concessionary services, etc], sections 26 [Separate services for the sexes], 27 [Single-sex services] and 28 [Gender reassignment]:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3