City of London Consultation Results - they can't get away with this

[2010Equality]

Man Friday!

The City of London consultation on “gender identity” and single-sex facilities (including Hampstead Ponds, toilets and changing rooms at running track, facilities at the Barbican etc... ) results are out .

It's bad. The policy has been adopted on the basis of the flawed survey and misreading of the equality act.

My thread here

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1130973355849461765.html

They can't get away with this!

The Standard reporter, Liam Coleman, needs refreshing on journalistic standards. He quotes uncritically the Corporation's claim that "an “overwhelming majority” of the 21,000 valid responses to its consultation favoured ensuring trans people did not suffer discrimination."

Any reporter worth her salt would have had her ears perk up at that qualifiying word, "valid." Obvious follow-up, "How many invalid responses did you receive? Why were they invalid?"

I would tweet this at Coleman and his editors if I were Twitter...

On Twitter, even.

All three pools are mixed sex now, surely? If the women's pool is becoming mixed sex, the mixed sex pool stays as it is, the men's pool must become mixed sex too. If it doesn't, City Of London Corp is open to a claim for sex discrimination.

Further, remember the letter some lawyers sent where, in the absence of the Legal Fiction that is a GRC, the legal comparator is the sex a person is transitioning from.

The law is very clear here. No human can ever change their sex..

forwomen.scot/30/03/2019/tie-letter-legal-response/

Jacky wasn't there a bylaw which the Police cited when they asked #ManFriday women who identifed as men to leave?

From memory, the Police said they had checked and found that it superceeded the City of London regulations but was also (perhaps) only specific to the men's pond.

Seems this may be one for the feminist solicitors, barristers & law academics?

Any reporter worth her salt would have had her ears perk up at that qualifiying word, "valid." Obvious follow-up, "How many invalid responses did you receive? Why were they invalid?"

indeed!

Jacky Two of the pools are now mixed sex, the men's is still single sex. Unless the CoL changes the byelaws then its decision to accept self id doesn't apply to the men's, and any trans man would still be removed by the police.

Unless the CoL changes the byelaws then its decision to accept self id doesn't apply to the men's, and any trans man would still be removed by the police.

That this is not picked up by journalists etc speaks volumes.

RO I don't recall anything about that. Maybe someone from Man Friday will recall it.

By-laws do not supersede national law though. If the men's pool fails to become mixed sex too CoLC opens itself to sex discrimination claim.

Given the legal position about comparators, CoLC is going to be permitting males to share the women's [females] pond, unless it can prove it has evidence of the Birth Certificate of every transitioner. Therefore, by law, it has to permit females to use the men's pond also. To fail to do this is to discriminate against the female sex.

CoLC may have forgotten that the Equality Act 2010 defines the sexes as follows:

man: a male of any age
woman: a female of any age.

Is he men’s pond not open to Transmen?

Is the men’s pond not open to Transmen?

I would guess so, since transitioners from female to male can more easily "pass" as the opposite sex with double mastectomy + prosthetic penises + ingestion of synthetic testosterone.

If bearded transwomen is a thing then I think boobed transmen should be acceptable too.

Mail has picked up on the "valid" question (amongst other key issues) in it headline bullets:

Anybody who identifies as female can use Ladies' Pond, on Hampstead Heath
Controversial move has been given green light by City of London Corporation
Consultation on attitudes to gender identity received nearly 40,000 responses
But 46 per cent, nearly 19,000, were disregarded - leading to a furious backlash
Council sparked fury among some activists and Muslim women who use pond

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7062651/Council-rules-identifies-female-swim-Hampstead-Heath-women-pond.html

The relevant byelaws state:

6. No male person over the age of 14 years shall go or attempt to go into any part of any open space in contravention of any regulation of the Council specified in a notice exhibited on such part reserving such part for the use of female persons and children under the age of 14 years only.

10. No person in any open space go or attempt to go into any water-closet, urinal or other place of convenience provided for the opposite sex or infringe any regulation of the Council set up therein controlling the use thereof.

www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/green-spaces/hampstead-heath/visitor-information/Pages/byelaws.aspx

Women's spaces allow boys ages 13 or under, which makes a certain amount of sense (13 though?!) but 'male persons' must not enter spaces reserved for 'female persons' under two byelaws. Funnily enough, those byelaws are only enforced against women.

I'm quoted quite a bit in this BBC News article (many typos): www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48380940

Oddly, my sense of maleness abruptly manifests within any space controlled by the City of London Corporation. It's also delightful weather for a swim

from the Daily Mail:

"Edward Lord, chair of the establishment committee, which leads on the City Corporation's workforce and inclusion policies, said: 'This policy will ensure our public services do not discriminate against trans people.

'We support a wide range of service users and we want to ensure they can all feel comfortable accessing and enjoying our facilities.

'All communities should be fully respected, and equality and basic human rights upheld."

From the BBC article

A spokeswoman said: "The Ladies' Pond is a single sex space and the KLPA is committed to helping to create there an inclusive environment for all women, including transgender women, which is free from discrimination, harassment or victimisation.•

Single sex eh?

If bearded transwomen is a thing then I think boobed transmen should be acceptable too.

LOL!

I take the point though. If female to masculine transitioners are using the men's pool, then that pool is mixed sex too .. and natal male users need to be made aware by CoLC that female to masculine transitioners are using that pool.

Similarly, CoLC needs to make natal female users of the women's pool aware that male to feminine transitioners are using that pool. Thereafter, every natal female can know that the only males who will be using the women's pool are the very males who probably should never be there because they are possibly sex offenders [see www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents ]

Any decent male to feminine transitioner will already be using and will continue to use the mixed sex pool. [As will any female to masculine transitioner.]

'This policy will ensure our public services do not discriminate against trans people.

While at the same time ensuring our public services do discriminate against women who are unable to share personal spaces with males, regardless of their gender identity, when in a state of undress or vulnerability.

Wonder why you left that part out, Ed?

Plus not mentioning that transwomen now have no less than three ponds to choose from - the mens, the mixed and the women's - while women who can't share space with men now can't access the ponds at all.

And yes to lets go and colonise men-only facilities and demonstrate how bloody sexist and discriminatory this really is. It's about the right of men to enjoy getting into women's spaces against women's consent, and basking in the validation. That's it. That's all.

It's about the right of men to enjoy getting into women's spaces against women's consent, and basking in the validation.

This is why CoLC must make it very clear that males are permitted to use the women's pond and females are permitted to use the men's pond, so that natal female and male users can decide what to do based on informed consent.

Such information should not be presented in "small print" but should be presented in a manner that cannot be overlooked by users. Labelling the women's pond as "Women Only: men not allowed beyond this point" is no longer adequate since CoLC is admitting men to that pond now.

This time last year I wrote:

I believe the majority of people have a shared expectation of what a single-sex space or service is.

If this definition is to be changed then all stakeholders in society should be aware of this and able to consider it and contribute.

This can't be restricted to people from certain age group/ gender identity / educational experience / user of certain social media sites/ members of political groups etc.

To do so is to disenfranchise others.

Its absolutely bloody ridiculous to accept survey monkey as an appropriate tool for the City of London Coporation to use for this.
Its not fit for purpose.

Edward Lord was always clear about 'their' intentions.

The whole City of London / Women's Hampstead Ponds situation needs scrutinising by decent investigative journalists who ask follow up questions and do a bit of research.

Its really worth reading the ManFriday thread from last year.
Bloody brilliant women
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3261705-Turns-out-Hampstead-swimming-ponds-are-single-SEX-after-all

Plus not mentioning that transwomen now have no less than three ponds to choose from - the men's, the mixed and the women's - while women who can't share space with men now can't access the ponds at all.

And this is the root of any sex discrimination claim since it deliberately excludes women and girls of some faiths.

Thanks for the research - used some of these points on BBC Radio London Just now.

Excludes women and girls of some faiths, some cultures and some disabilities. As well as women exercising freedom of belief.

The bottom line here: this pretence that a man has turned into a woman only goes so far. When you believe it's right to include men, you believe it's right to exclude women. From women's facilities. You cannot do the one without the other. Which means you believe that women should lose their right to facilities, services and provisions if they will not surrender their boundaries. And that these excluded women include exclusion on grounds of disability, sexuality, faith, culture and freedom of belief. And somehow, you're ok with that.

YesItsADebate - just heard you on BBC London, you were excellent. Very articulate and got loads of points in about the flawed consultation. Very tiresome interruptions from Eddie Nestor "Are you are a transphobe?" - seems to be the only thing they can counter with.

It's been written up on the localgov website

Campaigners question validity of survey on transgender rights

Women's campaigners have questioned a survey by the City of London on transgender rights after nearly half the respondents were excluded from the results.

www.localgov.co.uk/Campaigners-question-validity-of-survey-on-transgender-rights-/47476