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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harry the Owl and others launching high court battle

209 replies

Nephilim1964 · 12/05/2019 10:49

Link to story below

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7018915/Businessman-launches-landmark-High-Court-battle-overhaul-official-rules-hate-crimes.html#comments

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 11/06/2019 09:13

Harry is not suing 'your' police force. He is seeking judicial review of the College of Policing guidelines on hate incidents.

My mistake, I just noticed on the crowdfunding page that Humberside Police are included in this action.

LangCleg · 11/06/2019 09:20

So I could call the police now and report your post as a hate incident. The police would not have to investigate because there has been no crime, they would just have to record the incident. If they're being diligent they might phone you up for a chat, just to check your thinking.

And then the police would have a file on you even though you have not committed an offence.

Quite. Would you still see your two sons as heroic white knights for the marginalised if they were in full agreement if a police officer phoned you up and told you that your hate for the disabled was unacceptable and they'd be keeping tabs on everything you posted on social media going forward, 2Boys? Would you?

Or would you say, "This is outrageous. I haven't expressed any hate."

Which would it be? Riddle us that.

GodDammitAmy · 11/06/2019 10:08

I believe you raised £250000 for Mr Owl,

2boys - would it help you froth less if you realised you have added £100,000 to the actual figure of £25,000 that has been crowdfunded?

ZebrasAreBras · 11/06/2019 10:20

I will never think it's a good use of police time & resources to investigate non-crime. Not when they are so strapped, they cannot investigate....crime.

TimeLady · 11/06/2019 10:23

I can appreciate that the police are obligated to record any report of a hate incident. However, it was the lack of discretion being applied by PC Gul in deeming it necessary to spend half an hour of his shift - and no doubt at least the same time again writing up the report - questioning Harry's thoughts and quoting pseudoscience as fact that raised my hackles, when investigating other far more serious actual crimes might be better use of his time.

GodDammitAmy · 11/06/2019 10:33

2boys - would it help you froth less if you realised you have added £100,000 to the actual figure of £25,000 that has been crowdfunded?
^
I meant £225,000. How ironic Grin
The point stands the same though.

Ali86 · 11/06/2019 10:52

@2boys I hope you don’t mind me saying but I’m not sure that you understand exactly what the case is about. It’s a complicated area but you seem to be picking up lots of bits and pieces from websites that aren’t relevant to the case and that seems to be causing confusion.

First of all, this is about “non-crime hate incidents” it is not about hate crime. Hate crimes have to involve a crime and the police are not suggesting that there has been a crime here. That’s a crucial difference because crimes are defined in law and tested in court so it’s clear what they are and why the police are involved.

This is about non-crime hate incidents. They are not defined in law. They are defined in the operational guidance of the College of Policing especially pages 60-63 of this. This guidance does not create law, instead it tries to give police guideance in how to act within the law. The definition that it uses of a non-crime hate incident is:
“any non-crime incident which is perceived by the victim, or any other person, to be motivated (wholly or partially) by a hostility or prejudice.
Harry is launching a judicial review. The point of judicial review is to make sure that public bodies, including the College of Policing, the Police and the Crown Prosecution Service are acting within the law. That law includes the Human Rights Act. Harry is presumably arguing that the guidance is so vague and subjective that almost anything can be a ‘non-crime hate incident’ and so it breaches human rights because there is no way of knowing when your perfectly lawful speech or actions will be investigated as a non-crime hate incident. Presumably he is also arguing that even if the guidance itself is lawful then it was applied by Humberside police in this case in a way that breaches his human rights. The College of Policing is completely aware of this possibility. They warn about it on page 62 of the guidance.

You don’t have to agree with Harry’s words to see that this challenge is an important one. TheOtherPamAyres has some good posts on this thread and especially why the police might welcome the challenge. I hope she doesn't mind me copying her earlier post here because I thought it explained the issues really well. She said:

“I'll hazard an (educated) guess that front-line police officers will welcome the action.

If you've ever been put in the untenable position of 'warning' a blameless individual, exercising their human right to free speech in a way that breaks no laws, then you will know that the guidance on 'hate incidents' was a scandal waiting to happen.

You will also know that once the public lose confidence in the police and see them acting oppressively and foolishly, then the contract of 'policing by consent in the UK' is broken.

For those reasons officers crave clarity and direction. They want the public confidence to be restored. “

I hope that helps you see why the challenge is important even for people who don’t agree with Harry’s views.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 11/06/2019 11:09

Oh man, this thread turned Confused

2boys has literally no clue at all about what is actually being discussed, at all. Ali86 has clearly spelt it out for you, I suggest you read it, absorb it and stop looking at Wikipedia for things unrelated to this.

First of all, this is about “non-crime hate incidents” it is not about hate crime. Hate crimes have to involve a crime and the police are not suggesting that there has been a crime here. That’s a crucial difference because crimes are defined in law and tested in court so it’s clear what they are and why the police are involved.

Datun · 11/06/2019 11:18

From the College of Policing's own guidance.

The recording of, and response to, non-crime hate incidents does not have universal support in society. Some people use this as evidence to accuse the police of becoming ‘the thought police’, trying to control what citizens think or believe, rather than what they do. While the police reject this view, it is important that officers do not overreact to non-crime incidents. To do so would leave the police service vulnerable to civil legal action or criticism in the media and this could undermine community confidence in policing.

PC Gul actually told Harry that he had come to 'check his thinking'. Breaching the actual guidance and doing the very thing that the guidance claims the police reject.

And Harry was told if he didn't like it he could sue them.

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