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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Edinburgh Uni under pressure for hosting discussion on women's sex based rights

347 replies

GCatEdinburgh · 08/05/2019 14:04

Scotsman article here

So far they have been firm re. protecting freedom of speech, but the pressure is escalating and will continue, and they will keep a close eye on the balance of negative/positive correspondence.

The event details are here.

If any of you could write in support of the event the key recipients would be the head of the School of Education Prof. Rowena Arshad ([email protected]) and the Principal Prof. Peter Mathieson ([email protected]).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
CharlieParley · 08/06/2019 19:21

Consider the type of male behaviour you claim to abhor, and take a look at yourselves.

Must confess I am exceedingly puzzled at this. We have none of us here on this thread been aggressive, violent, entitled, arrogant, superior, contemptuous or patronising. Those behaviours I abhor. They are not male behaviours alone, females are well capable of all of these, but they are very frequently male behaviours, it's true.

We have been knowledgeable, articulate, determined and assertive. Which are female behaviours as much as the above, but more often than not assertiveness is thought of as a masculine trait, of course.

The only thing we have not done is acquiesce to the demands of a male that we forego our rights and submit to the various mechanisms employed to manipulate us into giving in after we said no.

Saying no to a male. That's our crime here, isn't it?

And the thing RobinMoiraWhite likely will never understand is that I too would have been accepting, sympathetic and respectful had my colleague Robin come back as Robin Moira. I couldn't care less what opposite-sex stereotypes a colleague chooses to externalise or internalise, as long as they fall within the boundaries of what is accepted behaviour and apparel in the workplace.

I wouldn't have complained at finding Robin Moira in my toilets either. I'd have been upset and uncomfortable, depending on the circumstances I might have felt frightened, I definitely would have found it inappropriate and profoundly unfair to lose my right to privacy and dignity. I would have felt exceedingly angry and disappointed that I mattered so little that no one asked my consent.

And as soon as I realised that this was now a permanent arrangement, I would have found a place where Robin Moira didn't go.

Occasionally, when these situations involve a stranger, I quietly leave, walking straight back out if possible. And when I become aware that a previously female-only facility has become mixed-sex without structural changes, like my local Debenhams changing rooms, I exclude myself entirely.

Any male who identifies as trans in this situation would be completely ignorant of my true feelings. As Robin clearly is.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 08/06/2019 19:56

Sorry, bit late to this and catching up. Did Robin realise that they shared a platform at the rally protesting the very reasonable Edinburgh university meeting with an individual who is still under police investigation for threatening to "throat-punch" members of FWS? Apparently, they were standing outside the meeting but it's FWS who have caused them "extreme trauma" and are, um, invading transwomen's spaces by pointing out that they were outside a women's meeting close to women to whom they wanted to cause GBH.

twitter.com/ChloeJSKennedy/status/1136347941130706945
More on these threads
twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1137111205808676870
Sorry for links - my screenshots skills are rubbish! As a lawyer, I wonder what Robin thinks of this. Or maybe VAW is no biggie.

TimeLady · 08/06/2019 20:33

I have a suggestion for any woman's group inviting a late-transitioning male to give a talk; extend the invitation to the transwidow too (but preferably on a different day)

Cwenthryth · 08/06/2019 20:36

I can see her point though. She's a very busy woman and the work she's doing is important. It's not as if Brennan is likely to be jailed - and the godawful circus that would surround a trial would be a huge distraction to her.
Oh absolutely, and I hope people don’t badger her about it or judge/criticise her for her decision. It’s hers and hers alone to make. But still my gut emotional response is disappointment. You’re quite right - it would be an absolute circus and pretty much only serve to give this violent misogynist attention and an opportunity to play the victim, no matter what the verdict. I just hate the system, wish the world was a nicer place and that this #%^ wasn’t a problem for Julie in the first place.

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 08/06/2019 20:45

I do notice that only a tiny minority of the women I know share the views expressed here. Not ‘half the population’.

What I have noticed is: that three years ago I - with trepidation - raised this subject with women friends, who then thought about it and agreed that there is a problem here. Two years ago, I linked up with other women (via this Portal of Radicalisation) that wanted to do something about it. A year ago, I bumped into an off-line friend at a WPUK meeting. This week, I met up with a friend from university that I hadn't see for a few years who started the conversation.

We are not a "tiny minority". Sorry.

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 08/06/2019 20:54

(I describe these stage as #peakbookclub, #peakmumsnet, #peakWUPK and #peajkOMFG, if that helps)

FloralBunting · 08/06/2019 20:58

The 'tiny minority' thing has come up before. Quite apart from the rebuttals mentioned as to why Robin's experience of this may not be an accurate representation of reality, I do wonder, if so few women agree with us here on FWR, Robin and co feel the need to keep pressuring us to be nice about their encroachment over our clear boundaries.

If there's really only ten of us, with multiple stock accounts and every other woman genuinely thinks Robin is a dainty female, no question, then it wouldn't be necessary for AWAs to come here or try and shut us down, would it? If no one agrees with us, then what is the need for Robin to assure us the village WI adore Robin and all Robin's female friends think Robin is defo a woman?

I think it's probably to shore up Robin's gnawing inner knowledge that this isn't actually the case at all, really.

Outanabout · 08/06/2019 21:05

Imagine going to court and being told you should address your aggressor by their preferred pronouns? Imagine the posing-as-the-victim that would go on? Weren't we here before with Maria McL? Why give a narc more limelight? They thrive on it. Russel Brand said that the furore over that creepy misogynistic radio exchange and phone call was absolutely the best time of his life, he loved it.

littlbrowndog · 08/06/2019 21:23

Mmm I read that piece in the times about Robin

I kinda thought well would just an ordinary woman get that write up

Then it just pissed me off so much.

I can’t write anything more cos of the anger of the appropriation of me
So pissed with this stuff

littlbrowndog · 08/06/2019 21:24

Then coming here to lecture us

Ho hum

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 08/06/2019 21:24

I have wondered during this thread, about Julie Bindel being attacked, about the MN guidelines. MNHQ have said that they would be unlikely to ban / warn people for naming sex offenders as men, regardless of those mens' description of themselves.

I wonder whether MNHQ would also consider that describing a bearded male that tries to beat up a woman, as "a man", might also be allowable?

It's just that reading the self-enforced "they-ing" on this is kind of making my head explode.

I've never had a warning, so I think I will brace myself for the hit.

A man threathened, and very nearly beat up, Julie Bindel in Ediburgh last night.

FloralBunting · 08/06/2019 21:28

A man threathened, and very nearly beat up, Julie Bindel in Ediburgh last night.

And someone thought this was the perfect thread to discuss how much the women of the WI love them. The commentary just writes itself, sometimes.

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 08/06/2019 21:29

He did it Wednesday night, not last night, I mean.

EverardDigby · 08/06/2019 21:37

This is what The Times article says about Robin's wife,

'She [Robin] was married for 12 years but separated from her wife last year. “It was an issue from early on,” she says. There were no children. “I tried very hard to bury it — I spent 30 years trying to ‘eliminate the impossible’, as Sherlock Holmes said. I tried very hard to be male, to be a good husband, but it just didn’t work out.”'

Poor woman. I wonder whether she had found her way to the trans-widows threads.

Ereshkigal · 09/06/2019 08:17

2.) That medical help starts with counselling, not genital surgery. 95% are therefore not only intact, they don't even have a diagnosis or take hormones (some buy their own but typically only after approaching the doctor and being turned down or finding the wait too long. So the number who take them without medical supervision is contained within that 5%.)

Wow.

Ereshkigal · 09/06/2019 08:18

The 'tiny minority' thing has come up before. Quite apart from the rebuttals mentioned as to why Robin's experience of this may not be an accurate representation of reality, I do wonder, if so few women agree with us here on FWR, Robin and co feel the need to keep pressuring us to be nice about their encroachment over our clear boundaries.

This.

TimeLady · 09/06/2019 08:34

Robin White (called 1995) is currently appearing on behalf of Katherine O’Donnell in the Edinburgh Employment Tribunal. Ms O’Donnell is a journalist and former night editor of The Times (Scotland) who has brought claims against her former employer, The Times Newspaper, of direct discrimination and harassment related to her gender reassignment.

www.oldsquare.co.uk/news-and-media/news/old-square-acting-in-two-prominent-cases-involving-transgender-issues

Mbwashenzi · 09/06/2019 08:50

That Sunday Times article...I have had it up to here with the lies and disinformation. Rosie Russell is being really disingenuous:

  • "Hostile environment" - did they look at the six humane, concerned compassionate women on the panel FFS?
- "stoked their anxiety" - what about the Edinburgh-based speaker, and the women at the event who were being photographed by protesters as we went in, and now feel that Brennan might be stalking and waiting to throat-punch us? - "one-sided" the event was about women's rights - what were we supposed to do? Have a speaker opposed to women's rights? An advocate for violence against women?

The LGBT committee, and members of Edinburgh UCU attempted to no-platform the speakers and get the event cancelled with a mendacious and defamatory petition, and the university told them not to tell lies, so they flounced off in a huff. The event was a model of a friendly environment. I was sitting next to the stink-bomber (bleuch!), who was allowed to stay, and treated with respect when asking a question at the end.

Floisme · 09/06/2019 08:54

That Times interview has so many gems.
That Sunday’s car-boot sale was going to be something of a rite of passage for Robin White. “I’m getting rid of all the remaining evidence of my maleness — suits, shirts, shoes,” she says.
If you’re still reading Robin and you’re as serious as you say about getting rid of the evidence, here’s a tip: Take that sense of entitlement to the boot sale too, otherwise it will give you away every time. You’re welcome.

littlbrowndog · 09/06/2019 09:13

I just hate that something happened and now we have to justify bein* women
And we have to justify meeting as women to talk about women

What the hell happened
How is this possible
We have to go to a select committee to justify only women in rape aid centres and refuges
Women only in sport
The taking away of boundaries for children

The list is endless
How did this happen
Sometimes I feel like my head might explode trying to work out why and who made this happen

Butchyrestingface · 09/06/2019 09:24

- "one-sided" the event was about women's rights - what were we supposed to do? Have a speaker opposed to women's rights? An advocate for violence against women?

Apparently so. Hmm Remember the edicts that transpeople should be ‘centred’ in absolutely everything.

In reference to the Transgender Intersectional conference held at Edinburgh University the week before this:

  • was there a petition against it?
No.
  • was there pressure to cancel the event?
No.
  • were there complaints that the event was “one sided” by not inviting GC presenters?
No.
  • were there protestors outside?
No.
  • was there negative media coverage before and after?
No.
  • did any of the presenters face intimidation and assault leaving the event?
No.
  • did the Feminist society resign en masse in protest?
No.
  • was Twitter aflame with GC feminists screaming insults at the presenters and attendees?
No.
  • did a MP issue a grovelling apology for even attending?
No.
  • did the conference itself implode from within with the audience accusing organisers of racism?
No.

I could go on.

TimeLady · 09/06/2019 09:58

Barristers, eh?

I'm finding it hard to see how one can argue that The Times had an anti-trans policy when one has such a positive trans-related article published in The Times about oneself.

Floisme · 09/06/2019 10:38

Hang on while I catch up: Robin White (who bears a striking resemblance) to a poster on here yesterday) has just had a sympathetic article about their transition published in The Times whole at the same time representing a client complaining about anti trans practice at The Times?

Floisme · 09/06/2019 10:39

While not whole.

Cwenthryth · 09/06/2019 10:50

There’s another thread about this article Julie Bindel has had published in the Sunday Times today

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/julie-bindel-the-man-in-a-skirt-called-me-a-nazi-then-attacked-8dfwk8jft?shareToken=f19f4ec79438928b896b5208e86342d6&wgu=270525_54264_15600730191686_9ad6a06e00&wgexpiry=1567849019&utm_source=planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=22278

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3607529-Julie-Bindel-in-The-Sunday-Times

But I just wanted to add here - yesterday I was feeling disappointed about the lack of police report - but now just look, what class and grace Julie has shown, getting her experience of the attack published and sharing her feelings openly, publicly, is such a simple, brilliant action to have taken. Don’t forget, her attacker posted on Twitter that he wouldn’t answer any journalists queries, but wanted a platform for an op ed piece - well tough luck matey, the woman you attacked has beaten you to it, and guess what, we all believe her.

This is so much more effective than a court case. Just give the situation air and publicity - everyone can see what happened.