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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paying for swimming lessons in a block/ periods

498 replies

Aquifolium · 07/05/2019 22:25

Hi,

My daughter’s have attended swimming lessons at the local pool for many years. Their attendance has always been spot on. Now they have started their periods they are missing one or 2 sessions a month.
I have contacted the manager to ask if there has been any thought out into this phenomenon, and the reply is of course, they can use tampons, which are perfectly safe.

I wasn’t addressing this issue in a ‘what are you going to do about it’ kind of way, but the dismissive response I have had from the manager has pissed me off.
I feel that my daughters are at a disadvantage now, and that I am paying out for lessons (block booking only)they can’t take up.
Has anyone else done anything about this issue before? Got anywhere?
TIA

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/05/2019 23:17

good

Thats poster was commenting about an even earlier poster who said that the girls should try tampax and if they were struggling they should have a go with vasaline

That earlier poster was agreeing with the tampax suggestion

GoodPlaceJanet · 09/05/2019 23:20

I see Rufus I must have missed the earlier post but read it now.

It still shocked me when I read it though. The assumption that tampon use for girls is a bad thing. As previously mentioned I was very young but I found it empowering.

stayathomer · 09/05/2019 23:20

I used to have very heavy periods and HATED tampons so totally feel for any girls in this position. It is a tough one but actually I wouldn't think it's too difficult for the swimming manager to just for example charge for 6 weeks but allow the week they're off go into the next term. I have a son with asthma who misses one of his classes every few weeks and they're excellent about carrying forward the week. For all the people saying basically they should just suck it up, they're so young and tampons can be hell when you don't like them

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/05/2019 23:24

No problem good

I just thought your comment was a little unfair but I'd completely forgotten that another poster had also used those words in their reply...so no wonder you thought it was odd!!

I tried to get dd to use tampons but she just couldn't

GoodPlaceJanet · 09/05/2019 23:26

What do you and your DD think of period swimwear as an option?

I'm tempted to try it myself for eco reasons.

DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 23:33

There are a number of options one could consider that would not mean raising prices for all - for instance a tiered system: book a fixed-schedule block for the lowest price, book a block with limited flexibility for a medium price, a block of maximum flexibility for a higher price and individual lessons for the highest price.

So, if you are well off and can afford maximum flexibility then the issue of menstruation being a barrier to you disappears. If you are poor, and can't afford to pay for flexibility then just tough?

So how does that address the problem the OP has?

I have repeatedly raised the issue of people with disabilities on this thread and been told that I am de railing.

So many people are "just implement flexible booking" but you are ignoring posters who work in the field who are saying it won't work.

The swimming club we went to ran on a Friday night. They hired the pool for the evening. It ran every week.

How do they implement a flexible system? If I can't go this Friday what alternative day can they provide? Do I go twice next Friday? The only way around that is to run an additional night so that if I can't go this Friday then next week I can go Wednesday and Friday. So immediately you have doubled the running costs. They now have to hire the pool and pay teachers for 2 nights rather than one but they aren't charging any more. So who pays for those additional costs? Do they charge twice as much for each child to offer flexibility?

No one is addressing the actual practicalities. It's all just hot air. You are making demands but have no answers as to how to implement them nor any interest in whether they can be implemented.

OccasionalKite · 09/05/2019 23:37

Thank you, CharlieParley!
It really is not rocket science, is it?

Public services should be suitable for the needs of the public.

And as Charlie says upthread:
Please note, the default is not just the average male, but the average healthy male.

Yes. Public services should incorporate options for people who are not average healthy males. Because so, so many people are not average healthy males.

CharlieParley · 09/05/2019 23:40

GoodPlaceJanet The assumption that tampon use for girls is a bad thing

The assumption was that all girls can use tampons and that all the girls who do not use them do so because that is their choice. No one in this entire thread has said tampons are a bad thing. On the contrary, for those who can use them, they are indeed empowering.

However, the OP's youngest daughter is not yet a teenager and it is common that younger girls struggle with tampons for various reasons. A number of PP shared their personal experience of not being able to use tampons at that age. Like myself for instance. I did not choose to sit by the poolside instead of joining in, I couldn't use a tampon and hurt myself when I finally forced the issue when I was an older teen.

Once again, for empasis:

What we are saying is that tampons are great and for those who can use them empowering, but there are some of us who cannot. It should not be an impossible ask on a feminist board that their experience should not be dismissed as making a fuss or being precious or not trying hard enough or whatever.

If there is one forum on the internet where members should understand that other females may experience problems where they do not, surely it is this one.

DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 23:48

Public services should be suitable for the needs of the public.

Yes they should BUT

In my area the "public" services are run by a private company who needs to make a profit

Even if they are run by the local council there is no money to subsidise the spirts centres.

One sports centre here is being closed because they can't afford to run it. Our libraries are only open part time. There are no children's centres, youth facilities etc.

Basically everything has been cut to the bone.

So yes, in my ideal world the sports centres would be free because I think we need to encourage everyone to exercise and stay healthy and that would save money in the long run. But where is that money coming from? Who is going to pay to enable this flexible system that you would like?

CharlieParley · 09/05/2019 23:50

Decomposing Composers As the OP has stated upthread, the swimming lessons in question are not offered by a club but by the leisure centre itself, ie we are not discussing swimming clubs hence my suggestions were not about swimming clubs.

And my boys did swim in a swimming club the schedule of which did not suit my youngest. I found out much later that the swimming club in the nearest alternative pool to us offered a much more flexible schedule. By then it was too late, but it shows that not every swimming club is organised in the same way.

mathanxiety · 10/05/2019 00:02

On the default being male -

Menstruation is a biological function of the default healthy female. On average that means a healthy female is affected in one out of every four lessons.

If females were the default, scheduling principles would have developed taking this into account from the outset, ie when regular swimming lessons were first offered to the public.

Please note, the default is not just the average male, but the average healthy male.

So not just the average male.

And actually we are talking about females who menstruate, so not post menopausal women, pregnant women, or pre pubescent girls.

And come to think of it, we are only really talking about that very small subsection of girls and women who for some reason do not wish to use a tampon. Despite the claims here, that subsection is actually very small.

Yes, it would be nice if pools offered flexible scheduling. However, a course of swimming lessons is often designed as a series involving progression from one skill to the next, combining previously mastered skills, at least in the initial lessons.

I suppose the various strokes could be mastered in any order.

As a swimmer myself who never had actual lessons but was taught the basics by my dad, and who managed to pick up different strokes from watching others and practicing, I am not sure how serious the issue of missing some of the formal lessons is.

Mostly what you develop in the course of swimming lessons is confidence that you can in fact float.

What you develop outside of swimming lessons if you have access to a pool is strength and endurance, and you can also fine tune your strokes.

You can develop the necessary arm and shoulder muscles for swimming lengths in your sitting room. Most competitive swimmers lift weights and run on top of spending time in the water.

What I am saying is, missing a few lessons is not going to make or break your chances of learning to swim or even to swim fast or well.

DecomposingComposers · 10/05/2019 00:07

the swimming lessons in question are not offered by a club but by the leisure centre itself, ie we are not discussing swimming clubs hence my suggestions were not about swimming clubs.

What difference does that make? My point was that in order to offer flexibility you have to have spare capacity. Who pays for that spare capacity ie slots that are not being paid for?

CharlieParley · 10/05/2019 00:11

What difference does that make? My point was that in order to offer flexibility you have to have spare capacity. Who pays for that spare capacity ie slots that are not being paid for?

My local pool offers swimming lessons every single day, with plenty of spare capacity. So do the two swimming pools in the nearest towns to me.

OccasionalKite · 10/05/2019 00:15

Equality Impact Assessments must be carried out when public services are being designed and maintained. There are statutory requirements where public services are concerned; but unfortunately, Equality Impact Assessments are more noted by their absence, rather than their appropriate implementation, which is atrocious.

We are well past the toxic idea that public services should be automatically tailored to accommodate the average healthy male.

News flash: the majority of people are certainly not average healthy male.

DecomposingComposers · 10/05/2019 00:21

My local pool offers swimming lessons every single day, with plenty of spare capacity. So do the two swimming pools in the nearest towns to me.

Well that's great then. Presumably no reason why they won't facilitate flexibility then?

In my local authority all swimming lessons are provided by private concerns or clubs. The seem to run independently of each other and hire out the local pool or more usually pools in schools.

Offering the flexibility to swap classes is an excellent idea. I am not opposed to it and it should be offered to everyone that needs it.

Now if someone could work out how to pay for it.

OccasionalKite · 10/05/2019 00:38

Services are already being paid for. That is not the issue at all!
It's just that the paid-for services are favouring people who are average healthy male, and that people who are NOT average healthy males (and there are rather a lot of us) are losing out, being neglected.
The issue is - Equality Impact Assessments, and their appropriate implementation.

DecomposingComposers · 10/05/2019 01:41

No the current services have been paid for.

Say you have 10 slots and 10 students on 2 days.

Now, to offer flexibility you have to have more slots available don't you? Otherwise 5 students might not come on one day but want to come to the next day. You then have

5 students with 10 slots
15 students with only 10 slots.

So how do you accommodate this? How do you work out how many extra slots to provide? You can't just maintain the existing capacity and risk having more students turning up than spaces available can you?

Childrenofthestones · 10/05/2019 04:36

Excellent point Decomposing

MangoFeverDream · 10/05/2019 07:27

And come to think of it, we are only really talking about that very small subsection of girls and women who for some reason do not wish to use a tampon. Despite the claims here, that subsection is actually very small

Yes, we’re not talking about the average healthy male. The average healthy, menstruating girl would also be unaffected by this.

Why is it the business of the pool
to be concerned about girls that can’t, for whatever reason, use tampons? This is going to be a very small number of girls, at the end of the day.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 10/05/2019 09:04

goodplace

Sorry i went to bed

I didnt even know you could get them til a few months ago

Touch wood its not been an issue...formal swimming lessons were all done before she started her periods. And due to her eratic cycle we have maneged to dodge periods on holiday

She is well aware though that she would struggle if she didnt use tampons on holiday...

IrmaFayLear · 10/05/2019 09:04

All very well put, DecomposingComposers.

Furthermore, how on earth do you police that girls are needing to be flexible because of menstruation and not because they don't feel like going on that occasion or have something else on? Do you get the option to be flexible twice a month? What if you are not regular? I certainly wasn't!

Also people have a romantic view of leisure centres being totally free. My local centre has the appearance of being council run, but is in fact owned by a private company and the instructors are often self-employed. Also the place is constantly rammed, and has waiting lists for swimming lessons.

Furthermore... what if you have more than one child? Most would schedule, say, Tuesday for one to swim at 5pm and the other at 5.30pm. If one child had a period then you'd want to reschedule both!

And to top it off, it's not 50% of the population. It's a small group of tweenage/teenage girls who require scheduled swimming lessons. Ime the average girl of that age, unless they swim as a hobby, would rather die than go near an organised swimming lesson (but that's another thread).

DecomposingComposers · 10/05/2019 09:31

IrmaFayLear
Oh good points.

Our leisure centre is the same - run by a private company on behalf of the council and yes, all of the instructors are self employed.

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2019 09:41

My local pool offers swimming lessons every single day, with plenty of spare capacity. So do the two swimming pools in the nearest towns to me.

Fab. How does that help people who live in areas where thats not a reality and have a shortage of facilities?

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