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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paying for swimming lessons in a block/ periods

498 replies

Aquifolium · 07/05/2019 22:25

Hi,

My daughter’s have attended swimming lessons at the local pool for many years. Their attendance has always been spot on. Now they have started their periods they are missing one or 2 sessions a month.
I have contacted the manager to ask if there has been any thought out into this phenomenon, and the reply is of course, they can use tampons, which are perfectly safe.

I wasn’t addressing this issue in a ‘what are you going to do about it’ kind of way, but the dismissive response I have had from the manager has pissed me off.
I feel that my daughters are at a disadvantage now, and that I am paying out for lessons (block booking only)they can’t take up.
Has anyone else done anything about this issue before? Got anywhere?
TIA

OP posts:
DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 18:20

So missing a swimming lesson once a month is equivalent to rape is it?

What do you call such arguments on here? Strawman or false equivalency or something?

What a waste of time. I shall leave you to contemplate your own navel.

RedToothBrush · 09/05/2019 18:37

Then that's important to address in the debate but it really not feminists' job to represent everybody.

Nonsense.

If a feminist believes in the concept of rights, then yes they should consider the impact of change on the rights of all. Otherwise they don't believe in the foundations of their own rights and are fundamentally shooting themselves in the foot, by leaving themselves vulnerable to a backlash against the proposals, actions or goals they want to achieve.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 09/05/2019 18:48

I honestly don't know where to start with this issue being compared to smears and rape.

Do you understand what an analogy is? It’s not a like for like scenario.

DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 18:49

It's grossly offensive, is what it is.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 09/05/2019 18:52

It’s difficult to converse with people who are incapable of understanding what is being said. Nobody said missing swimming is the same as rape. Ffs stop being so bloody argumentative. It should be plainly obvious we are using other examples of issues that affect some women but not all, and are yet issues that only or mostly affect just women as a class and therefore are feminist issues. Feminist issues are varying in degrees of severity, there’s no comparison or list of which is worse. We are simply explaining why it’s feminist.

Jesus fucking Christ

JessicaWakefieldSV · 09/05/2019 18:55

It's grossly offensive, is what it is

What’s offensive is when you deliberately misrepresent or misinterpret to claim things not said or even implied. It’s fucking irritating. An issue doesn’t have to affect all females to be feminist. Whether its domestic violence, endometriosis, difficult periods, rape, unequal pay, sports... whatever it is.

DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 19:05

This is an issue of choice - choice whether to have swimming lessons, choice where to have the lessons (some more flexible than others), choice over sanpro, choice over swimwear, choice over whether to miss the week of periods. So lots of opportunity for choice.

Who chooses to be raped?

JessicaWakefieldSV · 09/05/2019 19:10

This is an issue of choice

To you. Others don’t think so.

Choice is also irrelevant in terms of something being a feminist issue, which was the reason for the analogy, as a response to the comment that said if it didn’t affect all women it wasn’t a feminist issue.

You’re very good at deliberately rewriting what was said.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 09/05/2019 19:12

I’m not going to let you start another irrelevant fight in order to derail. Nobody compared anything directly to rape. Stop saying something that isn’t true.

Funny that despite saying this isn’t a feminist issue several times, you still choose to debate it relentlessly instead of being on a different thread on feminist issues.

DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 19:15

Sorry I didn't realise you had been made boss of the thread.

This is an open forum where people can express their opinions and so I shall.

Funny how a few posts back you were accusing other posters of being rude!!

JessicaWakefieldSV · 09/05/2019 19:20

I would recommend reading page 35 of the plan international uk report on menstruation and girls in the uk:

plan-uk.org/file/plan-uk-break-the-barriers-report-032018pdf/download?token=Fs-HYP3v

JessicaWakefieldSV · 09/05/2019 19:21

I’m not going to let you, by engaging in it further. Back to the topic....

Bloomburger · 09/05/2019 19:29

This kind of entitled whining is doing more damage to the cause, why aren't we focusing real issues facing women! A period is not a disability.

This ^

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 09/05/2019 19:36

Yes, the real issue facing women is the structural inequality of the sexes that still exists in our society. Of which this is an example. Not the most important, not the most pressing, but an example nonetheless.

Sunkisses · 09/05/2019 19:43

Wow, Jessica, you have been extraordinarily patient in the face of rudeness, derailing, misrepresentation and whataboutery. This is clearly a feminist issue and I thank you and the OP for raising it. This kind of scenario is exactly what Caroline Criado-Perez's new book 'Invisible Women' was highlighting, where the world is built and arranged as if males are the default, and women have to pretend as if their biology does not exist. As someone else said, it hides in plain sight.

mathanxiety · 09/05/2019 19:51

I think you will find that boys from the bottom third of society are also disadvantaged, Weeping.

This is not whataboutery.

The only girls who do not have a choice here are those who can't afford pads or tampons. Also those who do not have access to a swimming pool.

cottonwoolmouth · 09/05/2019 20:07

Sunkiss if I ran a pool I STILL would not put on extra lessons for females choosing to skip other lessons and wanting to catch them up! I’m female.

There was a common assumption among many participants that girls and others who menstruate should not go swimming while on their period, and even those who understood that this was not true said that they would still feel uncomfortable going swimming in case they leaked in the water

This is from page 35 on the link Jessica posted

Jessica this information is regarding information and education that’s needed to give to the girls. If we’re basing this now on feelings then you better put your feminism banner away because as you should know feelings don’t trump truths.

Monica, 15, gave an example: “I do trampolining so that’s really hard. If we have competitions, sometimes I get really scared about going on and then I wear really baggy tracksuit bottoms and I take them off really quickly to do the routine, then I pull them back on really quickly.”

So what’s the solution for ‘Monika’ Jessica?

Should ‘Monika’ miss her trampolining training/comp and be given another lesson?

Should this happen across the board?

A boy pays for 12 weekly lessons for say £112

A girl pays for 15 weekly lessons at £112

cottonwoolmouth · 09/05/2019 20:08

The only girls who do not have a choice here are those who can't afford pads or tampons. Also those who do not have access to a swimming pool

Yes.

MangoFeverDream · 09/05/2019 20:42

I just don’t get the fuss about tampons. I was on a competitive girls swim team as a teen and we all just used tampons and passed around the ibuprofen. It never occurred to any of us to do anything differently.

Maybe you should try different brands of tampons for your girls. It’s horrible for the environment, but the plastic applicators are brilliant (I use a cup now, fwiw). Did hate those cardboard ones my mom would bring home at times, but whatever—sitting out was just not an option for any of us on the team as practice was every weekday for hours during the competitive season.

GoodPlaceJanet · 09/05/2019 22:35

@MangoFeverDream ah but those of us who've said similar have been told how awful we are for even suggesting that. Like you I swam competitively and did ballet and tampons designed for young teens were ideal for me and my peers. Not only did we all use them but school freinds who weren't into sport also used them. And yes WE KNOW that some people can't use them but the way it's being discussed makes it seem like this is the majority when we know that's not the case. One poster talking about shoving girls in a room with vasaline I mean for goodness sake. I'm sorry that was your experience but I found it empowering to have that control over my body from such a young age.

Haven't we been told throughout our history that our periods are the reason we can't be equals and we can't participate? Talking about our periods being the cause of inequality in such a large scale like people are saying here seems like a step backwards to me.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/05/2019 22:41

ne poster talking about shoving girls in a room with vasaline I mean for goodness sake

Yes

That was a poster who was agreeing with lots of people on the thread that trying to use tampons was a good idea...

Herland · 09/05/2019 23:05

I see your point Op. Particularly because right from the start I had horrifically painful and heavy periods and tampons wouldn't hold my flow,(was latterly diagnosed with endo). Not all women and girls can use tampons. However, there really isn't a lot that swim schools can do. With my childs karate club, children who miss a class through illness /summer hols etc can make up that lesson on a different night at a different location. If swimming schools (particularly local authority) were somehow able to offer a more joined up service like this it might particularly benefit girls.

GoodPlaceJanet · 09/05/2019 23:05

@Rufusthebewilderedreindeer I only saw this poster talking about her DDs...

I didn't tell them they had to use tampons aka stick things up their cunts, or I'd cancel their activities. I didn't shut them in the bathroom with vaseline and tell them to get on with it.

I response to the tampon issue. I took that to mean that tampons were a terrible thing to suggest?

GoodPlaceJanet · 09/05/2019 23:08

Also many posters have suggested period swimwear. Yes it's an expense but they are reusable and a perfectly good solution for those that can't use tampons. I had to wear a sports bra as a young teen which was expensive, not all girls did and none of the boys did. We weren't rich. Should I have had lessons refunded to cover the expense? If not then period swimwear falls under the same category no?

CharlieParley · 09/05/2019 23:13

Please explain how "male" is the default here?

Menstruation is a biological function of the default healthy female. On average that means a healthy female is affected in one out of every four lessons.

If females were the default, scheduling principles would have developed taking this into account from the outset, ie when regular swimming lessons were first offered to the public.

Please note, the default is not just the average male, but the average healthy male.

Flexible schedules would also benefit those who regularly miss lessons because of doctor's appointments or not being well enough to attend because of their disability.

This is especially relevant to swimming because it is an activity that is particularly beneficial to people with disabilities or chronic illnesses and that many more of them can engage in than running or cycling for instance (like the OP's daughters).

*Surely it is down to affordability and viability of a finite resource?

If they offer flexibility they will have to run with spare capacity. That will cost money.*

Yes. Reserving seats in buses for the disabled or only buying accessible train carriages also costs more money. So do programs designed to address inequalities faced by other groups. Pretty much everything costs more money that takes anything other than the default user into account.

And why are you only considering swimming? What about ballet, gymnastics, tennis...? Are you proposing subsidising/ increasing prices for all sports?

Because the OP has a specific issue with swimming (which her daughters engage in for health reasons). That's because full body immersion in water is one of the few leisure sports activities where menstruation is a hygiene issue that limits management options, typically to using tampons.

The OP has not made a complaint to the provider or demanded anything. She has pondered a particular problem she is experiencing, has identified it as a potential inequality that affects only females as a class and has come here to ask for possible solutions that respect her daughters' boundaries around their own bodies and that may redress the problem.

She has not demanded that others pay more, she has considered whether that may be a viable option. There is a difference.

As for the notion that feminism must take all other groups into account when seeking to redress an inequality that affects females as a class - no, it really doesn't.

Feminism is not egalitarianism, it is the fight to free females from oppression by males. Until this is achieved, feminism also seeks to address and redress inequalities suffered by female people as a consequence of living in a patriarchy.

Intersectionality means taking other axes of oppression into account than may affect females, such as age, class, disability, race or religion.

That does not mean one pushes through measures to the detriment of others, but girls - not just boys - also belong to the bottom third of society, ie are affected by poverty. So if we could find a solution that works for girls from poorer backgrounds, it would also work for boys.

Although it can be hard to put the needs and interests of females first, this is what feminism strives to do precisely because our needs and interests have historically not just come last, they have not featured at all.

If the plight of boys from poorer backgrounds is paramount to you, or even just fractionally more important than an inequality suffered by girls (whose parents can after all afford to pay for swimming lessons), then there is also a strong anti-austerity campaign that you can join instead of or in addition to a feminist campaign.

One does not have to limit oneself to one cause, but it is entirely legitimate and justified to do so. So if women here wish to put women and girls first, that is their prerogative. If you don't wish to do this, that is yours, but neither is an inherently wrong or morally questionable choice. These are both valid choices we can make.

However, coming back to the swimming lessons, I would add that a flexible schedule that would allow customers to make up for downtimes, would benefit not just girls, but also swimmers with disabilities and those from poorer backgrounds for whom block booking is more economical than paying for single lessons but who would nonetheless find it hard to justify paying for lessons they cannot use.

Such systems are in place in a range of different paid for activities. These systems have rules. Such a rule could be that one could reschedule one lesson per block for instance or that one would be charged if the lesson is cancelled within less than 24hrs for instance, but could be rescheduled if 48 hrs notice are given.

There are a number of options one could consider that would not mean raising prices for all - for instance a tiered system: book a fixed-schedule block for the lowest price, book a block with limited flexibility for a medium price, a block of maximum flexibility for a higher price and individual lessons for the highest price.

As the issue of an inflexible schedule also affects people with disabilities, the numbers of customers who could benefit from a more flexible approach would therefore be much larger than just menstruating girls who for cultural or physiological reasons cannot or for personal reasons do not wish to use tampons.

If I was in control of a swimming pool, I would want to trial a tiered system across all my classes, including swimming lessons. I'd market it to people with disabilities and to the time-poor customers of today who wish to get fit but cannot always commit to a fixed, weekly schedule (such as my DH who travels a lot for work) as it would allow customers to choose whichever booking schedule suited them best. The higher pricing would compensate for the problems identified by PP that flexible scheduling could create.

As far as I can tell, this doesn't seem to have been tried, so proclamations that it would lead to ruin or an end to public swimming lessons are premature in my view.

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