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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paying for swimming lessons in a block/ periods

498 replies

Aquifolium · 07/05/2019 22:25

Hi,

My daughter’s have attended swimming lessons at the local pool for many years. Their attendance has always been spot on. Now they have started their periods they are missing one or 2 sessions a month.
I have contacted the manager to ask if there has been any thought out into this phenomenon, and the reply is of course, they can use tampons, which are perfectly safe.

I wasn’t addressing this issue in a ‘what are you going to do about it’ kind of way, but the dismissive response I have had from the manager has pissed me off.
I feel that my daughters are at a disadvantage now, and that I am paying out for lessons (block booking only)they can’t take up.
Has anyone else done anything about this issue before? Got anywhere?
TIA

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 08/05/2019 23:08

One of the particular problems with swimming is lack of capacity. This is something ASA have pointed out as being part of the issue with inequality of some kids being unable to swim.

Our borough has a shortage of pool hours for teaching children full stop. The waiting lists for 4 year olds are crazy here. A significant number of kids just can't get lessons. There just aren't the classes and that's directly related to the number of pools being too few.

If you can travel further or you have organised / more pushy parents / go to a school in a more well off area you have a greater ability to have a chance of getting lessons. Those with disinterested parents have no chance.

That all filters up to older children. There presently just isn't the ability to have flexi classes, with the best will in the world.

So for me, the entire rest of the conversation here just is completely irrelevant and pointless due to the reality of the situation where I live. No one is going to build a new swimming pool here anytime soon.

mathanxiety · 08/05/2019 23:23

I agree with Cottonwoolmouth.

No matter what way you cut this, girls have a choice.
And no, boys don't have to make the same choice, but that doesn't mean girls don't have a choice.

Maybe the answer is to make swimming sessions longer so that students really end up mastering the art no matter how many days they may miss? Fifteen weeks? Sixteen? Twenty?

Or maybe the best solution is not to wait until periods might be an issue to teach a child to swim? It's surely the safest option anyway, considering how attractive some children find water, and how important it is to be able to swim if one should find oneself unexpectedly in the water?

In light of the fact that girls are actually missing school in many parts of the world because they have no pads or tampons or because there are no toilet facilities at school, or because they are being married off at the age of 11, and at the risk of being told this is irrelevant, this is truly a first world problem.

RedToothBrush · 09/05/2019 00:21

Mathanxiety, children are supposed to be being taught to swim at least 25m by the time they leave primary school at 11. The Amateur Swimming Association have been banging on since at least 2012 at how far off we are that target, and have been pointing out the lack of facilities and the how the cist of transport are preventing that from happening. A third of children leaving primary school can't do it. (anyway wanting to check this, Google 'ASA one in three children can't swim')

That's why I'm finding this thread so difficult. Too many people banging on about how girls who are 11+ are so hard done by, when the problem is really when they are younger in terms of accessibility and inequality.

It kind of misses the mark for me in terms of debate. Past the age of 11 swimming almost becomes a luxury rather than a necessity because of kids haven't got to a certain stage by then, they just aren't going to do swimming at all anyway, and the point about learning early is because it saves lives.

I just find the thread really misses the point in terms of barriers.

mathanxiety · 09/05/2019 01:27

Amen to that.

Aquifolium · 09/05/2019 13:14

Hi, I’m tempted to leave this thread alone, as I had no idea it would run to so many pages.
I have read through them now though and just wanted to reply to a few things.

What does the OP do if they are on holiday while her dds are on their periods? Are they not able to go swimming on holiday either? That is quite restrictive. Is that a feminist issue too? Because there isn't a financial work around is there in that instance?
I’m not sure about holidays to be honest. It hasn’t come up yet. We will camp this year. Camping with periods can be a bit more difficult but not going to stop them being able to join in.

I'm always amazed that there are so many people who just can't seem to grasp that we're all so different and what works for one won't necessarily work for another.

This. It amazes me every time on mumsnet. I think there are a few people on this thread who have lived experience of problems using tampons. They are more likely to view my OP as an issue. There are a lot of people who had no difficulty using tampons from age 10, and therefore it is a non-issue. The lack of insight into other people’s lives lead to a level of discussion that is not useful.

The problem is a problem caused by female biology. It has no external factors.
The external factor is the inflexible payment system.

What if we cancelled but then next week it was another girls turn to be on her period?
‘Taking turns’ makes it sound like periods are something which we organise for ourselves as a convenient excuse. That is not the case with my girls.

bit of a non issue, how many teenagers are going to structured swim classes? If they can swim can you not just go
ad hoc like most teenagers? What type of lesson are they even going to at that ability?

This one is more or less answered here

When I take DD to the public swim, I see a lot of teenage girls messing about in the shallow end, very few getting out of their depth.

My girls mess about if I take them to the pool. I am busy with my 3 yr old, and they swim a bit and then play around. This is fine, but it does not help them get regular exercise. Swimming lengths under the direction of a coach means they are reminded to do their less favourite strokes too. The benefits are great as they are both asthmatic, and the rhythmic breathing really helps. They enjoy swimming against their friends too, but are not interested in club swimming... the local clubs are quite strict about attendance and they have other activities they do which would clash. They don’t want to swim competitively.
I’m not really sure why I am justifying the face that they go swimming anyhow. More of the ‘teenagers don’t do swimming lessons here so why do the op’s daughters need to’ race to the bottom mentality.

there are still far too many women buying into and perpetuating the idea of period shame.

I agree, but assuming that everyone can just feel comfortable about menstruating from the get go does not allow a culture of periods being ok. It suggests a binary; be comfortable and confident or be a wuss. My girls are just getting used to it. I hope they will start to feel completely confident about it in the coming months, but the fact is that girls should be allowed a phase of adjustment.

A friend of mine believed that period pain was largely a matter of suggestion; she looked down on her teen friends who sat on the sofa with a hotty, and blamed their mothers for setting them up to have a hard time, and allowing it. she was off doing sport and having a great time. Until she herself experienced pms later in life. Her attitude changed then, when she realised she had no control over her experience.

She did tell me that a lot of the girls attendance reduced when they started their periods. Her solution was to offer a once a month ‘catch up’ session.

Great idea, which could be taken up by people who were ill too.

Can't they stop swimming lessons now/ for a while? They could still go swimming whenever they like and a lot of places do intensive school holiday swim courses.

In the end it comes down to what red toothbrush is talking about. If they quit, they will be back on the waiting list. THank you for your insight Red, I think you are right, that the idea of flexibility will be rejected on the basis of cost. Flexibility would improve things for girls and people with heath problems (there is a girl who attends infrequently due to her eczema for example). But it can’t be considered due to austerity. Another way austerity impacts more on girls and ill people. An impact which will not be seriously considered by the powers that be. If posters on FWR can’t see it’s a problem, will the council employees?

Didn't know they even did swimming lessons at that age lol. I thought lessons were for preschoolers.

Laugh out loud at my girls taking regular exercise if you like.

You couldn’t just turn up for a extra class to make up the one you lost because it would be a logistical nightmare.

Lots of logistical problems are worked around where there is a will. School timetabling anyone?

Perhaps you'd like to engage with the issues outside of individualist capitalist no-can-dos? thank you Lang

Girls need to fit in around a world not made for them, where male default and cash is king are the rules.

suggest periods are normal, and you know are something you are going to have to cope with for many years, is being vehemently shouted down. What is wrong with being comfortable with one's body?

As above, can girls be allowed some breathing space where they have time to get comfortable with their bodies?

As I have said before, I think one will quit, and one will continue for the time being. I will discuss with them if they want me to suggest the flexibility idea. I will definitely be buying the swim pants for £30+ pp. because I can afford to, just like I can afford the lessons at all. I am in a fortunate position that I can, and I think if my priorities were different, or money was a bit tighter, there’s no way they would continue swimming whilst missing out on so many lessons.

I liked Charley’s eloquent post, and appreciated willow, Jessica, Lang and others arguing my point with different insights.

And Connieston, it was nice of you to say that the debate changed your opinion. It made it feel worth having to read through all the ‘just crack on’ posts.

OP posts:
LassOfFyvie · 09/05/2019 13:40

MenuPlant
The pill
That's your answer
On a thread about schoolgirls/first periods etc

Do you have reading difficulties? I said twice that was not an option for young girls. Or are you just selectively editing what I said?

codenameduchess · 09/05/2019 13:48

We will camp this year. Camping with periods can be a bit more difficult but not going to stop them being able to join in.

So why can't they join in the swimming? It's suddenly not a problem because they're on holiday?

JessicaWakefieldSV · 09/05/2019 13:54

So why can't they join in the swimming? It's suddenly not a problem because they're on holiday?
She’s talking about camping, not swimming. Do you not get the difference?

Aquifolium · 09/05/2019 14:00

Duchess, not sure what you are getting at. When we go camping, We don’t camp at sites with a swimming pool. In fact we usually wild camp by arrangement with a farmer and dig a latrine. No shower block. No swimming pool. No toilets.

A pp asked what I would do on holiday. I have replied. You are not engaging with the question in the spirit it was asked in.

OP posts:
DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 14:02

Aquifolium
Well I would imagine wild camping, with no showers or toilets would be a nightmare while having periods as young girls.

SocFem19 · 09/05/2019 14:03

Having read a few responses here there have been some really rude responses. There a plenty of reasons why some women do not like using or can't use tampons or mooncups. I can't and I am a grown adult (vaginismus from trauma). The solution is that there should be a portion of class slots reserved for 10+ yr old girls which are pay per lesson instead of by block.

Aquifolium · 09/05/2019 14:07

Decomposing.
They are not fazed by it. Obviously they would rather the timing worked out for them. These girls are not squeamish about blood/ bodily functions. They approach challenges positively. That is what pisses me off about the ‘just get on with it’ comments. As a family, we do just get on with it. They would not let their period stop them from going wild camping.

OP posts:
Teddybear45 · 09/05/2019 14:11

For swimming, tampons are essential. If my daughters enjoyed swimming then I would teach them how to wear them. (I started my periods at 9, was wearing tampons at 12, but my periods come with contractions so they aren’t suitable for me; but i tried).

DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 14:14

Aquifolium

But the practicalities. Do you just bury used sanpro? That sounds grim.

The solution is that there should be a portion of class slots reserved for 10+ yr old girls which are pay per lesson instead of by block.

Who compensates the instructor if those slots are unfilled? And why only girls 10+? What about younger girls, or boys, who have chronic illnesses? Should they just put up with losing money?

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 09/05/2019 14:14

Some people really can’t get to grips with the actual question, which is female swim students incurring costs that their male counterparts do not, that they do not always have control over (math as has been said several times, not all girls, particularly younger girls, are able to use tampons. Thus there is no ‘choice’ involved.)

What that has to do with camping I can’t think. But people do love to latch on to things that deflect from the point at hand, because they have nothing valid to say about that point.

Aquifolium · 09/05/2019 14:17

Agree, Willow this is a derail.

No, you can’t bury sanitary towels; the plastic doesn’t biodegrade. You put them in the rubbish just like at home. You make a fire and heat some water when you want a wash.

OP posts:
DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 14:21

WeepingWillowWeepingWino

Sorry, it was the OP that brought up wild camping and digging latrines. I was just asking about it that's all.

And I think if anyone is looking at helping people who need to drop out of sports regularly and how to minimise their losses then I think they do need to consider people that have health problems and disabilities. Strangely enough that will affect girls and women too.

Aquifolium · 09/05/2019 14:23

Flexibility in the booking system would benefit everyone. People who miss seasions for a dance festival, a holiday, illness, or periods would all be able to take advantage of the flexibility. The cost would fall on the council who would have to do extra admin to allow people to book in to a catch up slot, and to pay for the extra slot. They would then pass this on to the parents, and it would be a case of everybody paying slightly more but being able to enjoy greater flexibility (everyone complains about having to pay all the way through the summer holidays when most people will miss a few sessions at least). Instead of some girls subsidising smaller class sizes for the boys.

OP posts:
JessicaWakefieldSV · 09/05/2019 14:31

And I think if anyone is looking at helping people who need to drop out of sports regularly and how to minimise their losses then I think they do need to consider people that have health problems and disabilities.

Right now the focus is on menstruating girls. I’m tired of your constant whataboutery and derailing. The focus is girls and menstruation. If you want a different discussion on other people affected by swimming, start the thread on the appropriate board. This is the feminism board and the OP is about girls and swimming. We do not need someone on here telling us there are more important things or more important people.

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 09/05/2019 14:31

Decomposing the OP brought it up in reply to a question she was asked. You latched onto it in an attempt to derail and discredit. Ditto with repeatedly bringing other issues, valid though they may be, in this discussion. You’ve done it throughout the thread.

DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 14:55

But the discussion is going nowhere. You are all just moaning about it.

And no, I don't think it is right that everyone has to pay more to benefit the few that you have decided are more worthy than anyone else. That rise in fees might mean that some have to stop going - in order to subsidise the OP who has already said that she'll by period pants swimwear - so that's the problem solved.

Aquifolium · 09/05/2019 15:03

I can afford to buy period pants because I will prioritise my low income.
Others will have greater difficulty prioritising spending on a) swimming lessons b) period pants.
There is a principle involved here, and the affects on girls just starting their periods will be greater for poorer families.

That is not a reason to put the price up slightly in a way the benefits everyone.

OP posts:
DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 15:06

That is not a reason to put the price up slightly in a way the benefits everyone.

What's not a reason?

Aquifolium · 09/05/2019 15:07

The fact that I have said I will find a way to pay for a pair of £30+ pants which may or may not work all that well.

OP posts:
DecomposingComposers · 09/05/2019 15:20

I don't understand.

Are you saying put the price up for everyone or don't put the price up for everyone?