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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paying for swimming lessons in a block/ periods

498 replies

Aquifolium · 07/05/2019 22:25

Hi,

My daughter’s have attended swimming lessons at the local pool for many years. Their attendance has always been spot on. Now they have started their periods they are missing one or 2 sessions a month.
I have contacted the manager to ask if there has been any thought out into this phenomenon, and the reply is of course, they can use tampons, which are perfectly safe.

I wasn’t addressing this issue in a ‘what are you going to do about it’ kind of way, but the dismissive response I have had from the manager has pissed me off.
I feel that my daughters are at a disadvantage now, and that I am paying out for lessons (block booking only)they can’t take up.
Has anyone else done anything about this issue before? Got anywhere?
TIA

OP posts:
JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/05/2019 11:10

The only viable option presented for children has been tampons. If the response to girls wishing not to insert an object into their vagina is ‘stop whining you have options’, that is sexism plain and simple. We are discussing alternatives that work for every girl.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 08/05/2019 11:10

You wouldn't think this was the feminist board from the amount of either ignorant or "just being contrary for the sake of it" posts (prevalent on MN everywhere these days I find, sadly. AIBU was just patient zero).

Whilst I am not equating periods with a disability, surely reasonable adjustments should be seen as a positive, not scoffed at?

"Surely if you let girls off of paying because they have periods you would also have to let people off if they were unwell, particularly if that illness was a disability under the EA?

I've just missed 8 weeks from the gym because of the disability that I have. Should I ask for a refund do you think?"

Case in point. I am a member of a gym (solely for the pool) and have a disability that means I can't swim alone (epilepsy) and sometimes can't swim at all due to injuries. My gym have been great, they have suspended my membership when I was uncontrolled/injured and reduced fees for a companion so I can still swim (which I love).

Great business. They're still getting money from me that I wouldn't be paying to them if they wouldn't make adjustments. I recommend them to everyone so they have got more business from me.

The suspended periods (no pun intended!) were free of charge and I just started paying when well enough to go back to swimming.

If it can be done for me, surely it is possible to apply this when needed? I can hear the "well then they would have to do it for everyone" whines already. Well they don't, they do it solely for women (adult human females Grin). Just like companies provide sanitary bins and the contracts for maintaining them. Just like they provide sanitary products free of charge in hospitals (at last). We exist. We have needs related to our bodies. It's just a fact.

Taking account basic biology and trying to make the lives of 50% of the population more comfortable - why the fuck would people see it as a bad thing?

RedToothBrush · 08/05/2019 11:29

If someone doesn't have block bookings they can't guarantee income. Those running the classes don't know how many will turn up. It could be too many for safe running of the class or it could be none at all. If people only pay for what they use then that a) jeopardises the entire class b) puts the income of the person holding the class at risk.

It's a low paid job and one that is often part time. Thus often more attractive to women rather than men. Thus arguably a feminist issue from that point of view

There has to be a compromise at some point, and the line for me is what is reasonably practical.

In my experience people take the piss out of pay per session systems. They are more difficult to justify and by their very nature either have to be subsidised by outside funding or the cost is higher than block sessions, which then mean they are too expensive for some.

Not only this but the lack of commitment to a programme where you are perhaps working to a scheme where you hit certain targets at a certain time is going to have a massive impact on the effectiveness of the classes to everyone attending.

If one person only attends half the sessions they aren't going to progress as quickly as the others, so they'll have to drop back classes and that affects timetabling.

You then potentially get into the situation where girls are perhaps deliberately held back in classes because they 'are more likely to miss classes so it's better they don't go up to the next stage'.

I get annoyed at people suggesting that people saying just get on with it are somehow unfeminist. I see it as one of those situations where there would be a lot of unintended consequences to women, girls and those who are less well off in society if there was a pay per session scheme. In other words, where you might gain for some, you'd ultimately lose elsewhere for more. I think there has to be a line where you say, yes allowances for those with significant medical issues are fine, but beyond that people need to take ownership of decisions which are essentially lifestyle choices.

I do think if there was someone who had a medical issue relating to severe periods or toxic shock, then the case could potentially be made on disability grounds that those running a class should try and accommodate for. But that has to be in exceptional circumstances rather than taken as the norm.

Ultimately though, learning to swim to a certain basic standard is a life skill which can save lives, but beyond that it does become something of a non essential luxury in the scheme of things. You have to argue in what circumstances a child is then really disadvantaged?

At this point you have to consider that a third of children leave primary school unable to swim at all, and 40% of those who can't swim have never been offered the opportunity to swim in the first place.

If you want to go on about inequality, then that's the issue with children and swimming. This relates to lack of facilities available and the cost of transport to those facilities. This is something that has been an ongoing issue and in the news for a few years now.

So I am really struggling with this thread and comments about inequality in these terms.

3timeslucky · 08/05/2019 11:29

If a child (of either sex) gets recurrent ear infections, or gets injuries due to being hypermobile (using that example as I know of a case), they don't get a refund because they miss lessons. There is a solution that allows your girls to swim. They can choose to use it or not. But YABU to expect a refund.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 08/05/2019 11:41

Well my gym does allow me to do suspend/rebook membership and classes due to medical need so it can be done. People/companies just don't want to do it.

After all it only affects the half of the population who are women. Fucking hell, if men menstruated there would be adjustments put in place immediately to make accommodations, and we all know it. This "put up and shut up, women" makes me sick.

WomaninBoots · 08/05/2019 11:42

This isn't AIBU. It's the feminist discussion board.

I think it's a an interesting question and an interesting level of response. Feels like the topic has touched a nerve for some reason. Why?

Is it touching on the basic division in feminism between wanting equality within the current system and wanting to overturn the system altogether? And the thing with the current system ignoring female biology for the most part?

I don't think "adjust your comfort and safety boundaries to fit in and get on with it in a world designed for men" is a great message myself.

RedToothBrush · 08/05/2019 11:43

From whats been said, there is nothing here that classifies as 'medical need' though. Just personal preference.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 08/05/2019 11:47

I sincerely hope that in the future this "why should we make adjustments, it's just life, we all have to get on with on, accept your restrictions as we aren't prepared to make changes" attitude will be seen as discriminatory and changes made.

Just the same as allowing (for example) carers free entry to places as yes, some disabled people could go on their own but let's make their lives easier. Or ramps installed even though it costs money from our budget to benefit a small percentage of the population. Or we recognise we should increase the number of girls taking STEM subjects, let's spend some money encouraging them.

Yes women could have to make choices they don't want to (tampons or oral contraceptives) but let's try and think of ways to make it easier for them. I'd love it if mindsets change, and it saddens me that so many women on this thread think it just isn't worth the hassle.

Personally I'm all for adjustments that make my daughters' lives easier and enables them to enjoy themselves and fulfil their potential.

ILuvBirdsEye · 08/05/2019 11:51

My sons guitar tuition is flexible. There's a calendar of available time slots in the week and you pick which one to go to.

My daughter goes to horse riding and that's the same. I would think they would need to be more rigid as the number of horses is fixed.

If they can work it out I really don't see why swimming should be different?

My point is that there can be ways around it if there is a will to do so. Just saying letum use tampons indicates a thoughtlessness and an I'm all right Jack attitude, in my opinion. What's wrong with a bit of compassion for a 12 year old figuring these things out for the first time?

ILuvBirdsEye · 08/05/2019 11:54

And it makes business sense to keep the additional paying customer.

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 08/05/2019 11:55

It's a fixed mindset based on the default male set up with women and girls shoehorned in, and then fiddled with. It's the same mindset that thinks equal square footage devoted to male and female toilets is equality, with not a thought to the differing needs of the sexes, which is why so many of us end up pissing with half an arse cheek on the san pro bin.

englishdictionary · 08/05/2019 12:10

You spat out your tea because I mentioned the biology is not the responsibility of the swim school?

No no, what you SAID was ‘it’s biology not feminism’.

No, what I said was...

It's not feminism it's biology and the swim school has no responsibility for that.

You quoted part of my sentence to suit your agenda. My point was that the swim school bears no responsibility.

LetsSplashMummy · 08/05/2019 12:11

If your DDs have friends who are also missing lessons, could you approach the swim school and ask if two of them, who have cycles out of sync, could essentially trade. So your DD goes twice in the week when her friend has her period and vice versa.

I think you'll have to propose a solution, instead of just presenting a problem, but this kind of small steps towards flexibility might pay off.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 08/05/2019 12:15

I took dd to get the pill the other day

She is at college so older than the child in question

She had to tell the doctor why she wanted to go on the pill

Are there that many doctors that would be happy prescribing the pill to 12 year because she wants to go swimming?

JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/05/2019 12:43

Thus often more attractive to women rather than men.

It’s not actually. I know a number of swim school teachers around London because I’m a swimmer and had coaching with a top coach who went on to start a charity. My DD used the Fulham swim school. Predominately it’s males teaching.

QueenOfTheTofuTree · 08/05/2019 12:45

Not everyone can use tampons. I don't agree with the OP but I am a bit Hmm at some of the responses here telling her that her DD should just use tampons and that any girl not using them is simply making a choice not to. For some it isn't a choice.

I couldn't use tampons until I was 18. It wasn't a choice either because I had been trying for years but simply couldn't get to grips with them until then. They would either hurt or fall out and there were even times when the blood would miss the tampon completely and would bleed around it so wearing a tampon to swim in the latter situation would have been pointless anyway.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/05/2019 12:46

swim school bears no responsibility.

I don’t think anyone has suggested they’re responsible for periods Hmm but that they are providing a service which doesn’t adequately accommodate or consider female biology as best as it could- hence the discussion on how to feedback with solutions.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 08/05/2019 12:50

queen

Yeah, as i said earlier dd can't use tampons

She says she hasn't got a hole Grin

Im positive she does but im not checking!

LangCleg · 08/05/2019 12:51

It's a fixed mindset based on the default male set up with women and girls shoehorned in, and then fiddled with. It's the same mindset that thinks equal square footage devoted to male and female toilets is equality, with not a thought to the differing needs of the sexes, which is why so many of us end up pissing with half an arse cheek on the san pro bin.

Exactly.

QueenOfTheTofuTree · 08/05/2019 12:56

Rufus

I remember when I first started trying to use them (I think I would have been 13?) I used to wonder if I actually had one either because I couldn't see or feel where it was supposed to go Grin. Then once I'd figured it out I still couldn't use the things because of the problems I've already mentioned.

I'm not sure if it's a coincidence but I lost my virginity at 18 and it wasn't long after that that I was able to start using them without any problems.

LangCleg · 08/05/2019 12:56

So I am really struggling with this thread and comments about inequality in these terms.

Red - agree that low paid, insecure employment is also a feminist issue. I mean, this is actual intersectionality, right? Rather than the Woke identity-based nonsense.

The actual feminist problem is that women and girls are forced into an either/or.

Possible solution? Lengthen course length. Price according to attending, say, 6 out of 8 sessions and allow pre-booking of session. Boys can just book 6 consecutive sessions and complete course more quickly. Girls can book 6 period-free sessions and have their natural bodily functions taken into account.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/05/2019 13:01

englishdictionary and just to be clear, feminism IS biology, as it’s the reason for our oppression: our biology.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/05/2019 13:02

If you want to go on about inequality, then that's the issue with children and swimming.

It’s an issue, there’s no hierarchy of oppression where only the worst of the worst is addressed. Both problems exist and affect females.

3timeslucky · 08/05/2019 13:12

If the OP had asked about her daughter swimming competitively what would be the appropriate feminist response? Should swimming galas be scheduled when no female swimmer has her period? Should female swimmers only need to compete in a reduced number of races? Or if they choose to swim competitively is it ok to suggest tampons? Confused

JessicaWakefieldSV · 08/05/2019 13:17

Or if they choose to swim competitively is it ok to suggest tampons?

It’s ok to suggest, not ok to say that’s the only option and to get a grip if that option is not what the girl wants to do, as people do. Suggestion is fine, insistence is not.
Competitive swimming is a choice, learning to swim is something different.