Is a Transman a mother or father?

[Mamello]

What do people make of this in today's Times? To me this person did not 'Father' their child - they gave birth to their baby from their ova and so are the mother.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mother-of-all-legal-rows-for-trans-man-and-his-baby-5rzpw9mr7

Sorry - don't have a share token.

This is a really interesting thread, with lots to think about, and how it could impact law, birth recording, the meaning of words, and then it became about a "lovely, lesbian, now trans man, supermarket worker", who I understand is not on this thread!?

The granting of a GRC requires that the individual is intending to live in their acquired gender for the rest of their life. By undergoing fertility treatment to become pregnant just 10 days later, this person clearly had absolutely no intention of doing so. They should have their GRC revoked and be prosecuted for perjury. IMHO.

‘TT’ is the mother and should be recorded as such on their child’s birth certificate. I hope for the child’s sake that the government win the case. I don’t understand how someone feeling so at odds with their female body that they want to transition and declare themselves male would then want to do something that only female bodies can do - carry and give birth to a baby.

Someone on twitter needs to ask Lucy Banner an to write another trans article for balance, on how a transman once found a toddler's missing shoe.

A Father of course. Duh.

EeveePHD can you expand your answer / give more detail that leads to your assertion?

Sure.

A FtM person transitioned to become Male. Their identity is not up to me to decide. He will be a child's Father.

A Father of course. Duh.

Clearly not, as this person is trying to make a legal argument as we speak.

Currently, 'TT' will be recorded as the mother, according to the government.

The government, which opposes TT’s case, argues that the registrar- general had no power to record TT as anything other than the mother because he does not fit the criteria for any definition of father.

All eyes on the Judge, awaiting the decision, I guess....

This is what happens when we bring legal fictions like the GRA into legislation - it's hard to make definitions based on reality when we veer so far from it.

Thanks EeveePHD

Does that mean the child has 2 natal fathers and no natal mother, or is the sperm donor the mother now?

Not trying to be obtuse, just trying to understand how far the TWAW logic goes in this scenario.

And as noted by Zebras this is not a done deal just yet, but I guess what I'm also asking is if TWAW are we also going to redefine the meanings of all familial words?

A FtM person transitioned to become Male

Can you define male?

Opps sorry for spam, app said my post didn't load. I'm not trying to be like the toddler that hangs off your leg repeating the question over and over til you answer !

I wonder if there will be any prosecutions/ legal action for this person being given fertility treatment.

Either they committed fraud by declaring themselves female when they were legally male or the clinic illegally impregnated them.

I fully expect there will be a change in the law at some point to allow legal men to be impregnated at a fertility clinic but that day is not here yet.

No problem.

We're not talking about Trans women here. We are talking about a hypothetical situation involving a baby and their Father who happened to transition.

You're also regurgitating a straw man argument there. You're not pulling me down that rabbit hole.

You've not started this thread to actually ask the question in the title. You've started it for approbation of your views.

Glad to see someone has asked you how this actually affects you. Answer, as we all know - it doesn't. So why don't you wind your neck in?

It’s a legal case that will have ramifications for everyone, particularly this child and future children in this scenario. No issue with it being discussed.

EeveePHD can you define male?

Sorry EeveePHD I was lazy using TWAW as it's what's usually posited. Please use TMAM in my question.

I'm not trying to trick you in to anything, I'm honestly curious to know where, in your opinion, this logic goes in this scenario i.e does the child have no mother?

Are we also going to need to redefine the meanings of all familial words (and how does this affect law as definition of words is the basis of laws)?

If this transman was successful, and recorded as the father - would this mean a man could identify as a woman, get a GRC, and then be called the mother on the birth certificate of any children (s)he, er, conceives? A transwoman even with a GRC could not gestate or give birth - but if legally a woman - according to this legal challenge - could be recorded as a mother on a birth certificate?

And could

would this mean a man could identify as a woman, get a GRC, and then be called the mother on the birth certificate

be applied retrospectively? So the childs' bc would need to be re-recorded as having two mothers?

How far do we take this legal fiction, and who has the rights here? Does the child (who could well be an adult in this situation) have any say about their legal history being rewritten?

I'm going to again ask how this personally affects anyone on this thread.

It affects everyone at a very base level because it will render collected demographics and genealogical data utterly meaningless. It affects everyone when people’s feelings can potentially (if ruled so) change legal documents. It affects anyone whose spouse goes through transition, thus raising questions about their children’s birth certificates. It affects the legal definition of mother and father which means it affects everyone here.

The suggestion that because it doesn’t personally affect anyone here by not being involved in the case then people should “wind their neck in” is ludicrously narrow-minded.

I think you'll find it's you who is being narrow minded, unless you're using some unusual definition of the term I haven't previously encountered.

VeronicaDinner how does this thread personally affect you?