Clarification on Women only spaces

[Magenta82]

Hiya, I've always identified as a feminist, I'm fairly new to Mumsnet and before joining had read about trans rights and had got the impression that any challenges were transphobic and bigoted.

I can see now that, as with most things, the issues are far more nuanced than Twitter would lead us to believe. I can see issues with women's rights, self identification, shutting down debate, etc and am starting to understand other points of view.

I guess for me the complications arise when things get personal. I have some trans friends, both MTF and FTM, who have fully transitioned (as adults over 30), had all the surgery, got certificates the whole thing. What would the general consensus be on access to single sex spaces for them?

My friend may not have grown up as a girl/woman, but has made every effort to become one because she has always felt this way, she may not have faced the same challenges as me growing up, but she has faced other challenges and discrimination. I feel like she absolutely belongs in women only spaces and would hate to think that other people see her as a threat.

when initiating a basis for trans people

Please could you define your terms? Thank you.

cattycattycat

The basic point is using a restroom, every woman, every man every girl and boy must use a restroom! Why would the synopsis of this argument be about "woman" ..

Currently, and to now within this discourse, the Transsexuals have NO innate sex! I urge you to be cautious.

JackyHolyoake

I'm on the train getting off next stop can I get back to you. feel free to post any terms of reference.

Unless I have misunderstood, transsexuals aren't confused about their biological sex, they just want to be recognised as the opposite sex. I am talking about women's spaces as this is a feminist board and it is also the subject of this thread.

We have won a great deal, let us be ae magnanimous as we are restless!

This makes no sense, its just another version of 'women should be nice'.

When that means you giving away my rights, thats not nice, thats you oppressing me.

My own opinion aside, this place has a window of opportunity to engage with the fight for equality. Its loss or victory have a consequence for everyone, infant, child and adult.

Mate, you said cap it at the cervix and genuinely expected anyone to take your proselytising seriously? Get a grip!

You basically said all lives matter. That's it.

Fortunately, the Equality Act 2010 defines thus:

man = a male of any age
woman = female of any age

[Sex is defined in law as: chromosomes, gonads and genitals]

And the Exceptions in the Equality Act permit the enforcement of all single sex spaces. No "compromise" is necessary with these fetishistic heterosexual men, the law is clear.

[Note that the GRA 2004 applied to homosexuals to enable circumvention of same sex marriage.]

My recommendation would be disengagement a la grey rock here.

Sorry I got sucked in.

Don't be like Lang, folks!

@Shaboopy I don't want to share womens toilets with trans women. I just don't. Women have fought for women's only space by not compromising, ceding now to accommodate trans women is a joke for women's rights. Giving up this sets precedent for women to compromise. If trans women don't feel safe in men's spaces, then rightly so they should have own space.

I can't understand why trans women's safety and choices overrides mine as a woman

''Nothing illustrates more vividly the subordination of women than men deciding who can be one.''

Shaboopy

Unless, or until, you can define the word woman I don't think you need to try and communicate about women's rights. (Your dodgy communication skills notwithstanding.)

We have won a great deal

Not nearly enough for me to start making sacrifices.

Come back and ask for sacrifices when I no longer feel the need to walk home in the dark with my keys in my hand.

Currently, and to now within this discourse, the Transsexuals have NO innate sex! I urge you to be cautious

What does that mean? Everyone has an innate sex, 'currently' or otherwise. What do you mean by 'to now within this discourse? And cautious' about what?

FeministCat

Mariarchy; A society dominated by the "rights" of motherhood. unfortunately for you that means the government takes charge where it likes.

Shaboopy, it's really not clear what you are trying to say. My starting point would be that female facilities are needed for the sake of female people, and we should find other equally good solutions for the safety and privacy of non-female people.

Are you American, by the way (going on the 'restrooms' term)?

KittiesInsane

feminism supersedes national space, clearly! The starting point, internationally speaking, is still equal citizenship.

I've been accused of being one Ooh! Is that a crime? How transphobic of you!

I am not 100% sure about your definition of satire either!

The commission of feminism? Who the fuck commissioned it? And no, it was about liberation - womens Lic, remember that? It was about Equity not equality! Subtle difference, but important!

In order for ALL to win we must all compromise! I have no odea what that means off the page! WHat compromise do you suggest? That women shut up and allow men to colonise womanhodd, rape it, pillage it at will?

Pissing in a stall next door to a transsexual is a small compromise in a cause as big as humanity Great, then let men do it! All sorted

let us be ae magnanimous as we are restless! OK! I shall be magnanimous - I might refrain from telling ou what utter bollocks that whole post of word salad is. You may think it sounds clever but, in reality, it sounds like a poorly translated version of any number of 17th century speeches made by colonial males trying to exhort the lower classes to fight for them, to the death, Cry God fo Harry and all that!

Mariarchy; A society dominated by the "rights" of motherhood. unfortunately for you that means the government takes charge where it likes. I suspect you got that mixed up with The Nanny State!

Bollocks! Utter tripe!

Shaboopy:

Earlier in the thread I asked you:
Why do you think this is a conflict between women and trans people and men should not be involved? Are none of those trans people men?

You replied:
because men are already banned from women only spaces.

I replied:
Are there no men only spaces, Shaboopy? Why not talk about them as well?

You declined to answer, but now you seem to agree that we should be discussing that:
The basic point is using a restroom, every woman, every man every girl and boy must use a restroom! Why would the synopsis of this argument be about "woman" ..

So maybe you'd like to engage with that issue, which is that we have separate spaces for female people and male people. We now have a third category of people, those who reject their sex (which is a fixed attribute, and cannot be changed by any means), but as you rightly point out, still need to use spaces which are currently single sex. Since most of us want to retain the single sex spaces, the most obvious solution is to provide a third space which could be used by women, men, transwomen, transmen, and anyone who claims not to have a sex (which is of course impossible).

Do you think this is a good solution?

What this boils down to is another man coming into FWR and telling us women we’re womening wrong. You guys have more patience than I have.
@shaboopy you ask questions of us, don’t listen, then tell us what we should be doing.
Go well.

@CuriousaboutSamphire from your post some of @Shaboopy post now is somewhat understandable.

Thank you CuriousaboutSamphire for saving me a lot of time and effort in pointing out what a load of burble burble waffle word salad that was. It looks like those chimpanzees weren't given enough time on their typewriters. I feel like channelling Catherine Tate's Nan.

Thanks, animaginativeusername and WhereYouLeftIt I just wish I had been less bemused when I posted, I may have proof read it more closely

I've always thought restroom rather an odd term.

Wonder where it came from.

Gassy I must remember to use the offical sign off!