Clarification on Women only spaces

[Magenta82]

Hiya, I've always identified as a feminist, I'm fairly new to Mumsnet and before joining had read about trans rights and had got the impression that any challenges were transphobic and bigoted.

I can see now that, as with most things, the issues are far more nuanced than Twitter would lead us to believe. I can see issues with women's rights, self identification, shutting down debate, etc and am starting to understand other points of view.

I guess for me the complications arise when things get personal. I have some trans friends, both MTF and FTM, who have fully transitioned (as adults over 30), had all the surgery, got certificates the whole thing. What would the general consensus be on access to single sex spaces for them?

My friend may not have grown up as a girl/woman, but has made every effort to become one because she has always felt this way, she may not have faced the same challenges as me growing up, but she has faced other challenges and discrimination. I feel like she absolutely belongs in women only spaces and would hate to think that other people see her as a threat.

When my DBs were discussing the issue - both utterly decent men - the word "pervert" came up within a minute. Men get the risks to women far more quickly than some women.

Men get the risks to women far more quickly than some women.

I wonder if women who are fortunate enough never to have been the victim of a sexual attack, and who only have decent men in their lives, just don't understand how depraved some men can be. Whereas even decent men know exactly how vile some other men can be.

I tend to assume that women who support the trans agenda are mostly naive, but I am much more suspicious of the motives of men who support it.

Not only is it an expression of male privilege but the demand indicates a certain type of male. Decent men have no desire to intrude on woman only spaces. The ones who insist they have a right are precisely the ones we're fearful of.

Absolutely. I'm lucky enough to know only thoroughly decent men -- I haven't met a scumbag for decades (met plenty in my youth, though!)
I think any of them who by mistake found themselves in the ladies' dressing room or shower would be utterly embarrassed and back off with a thousand apologies and red faces.

There are also a fair few woman for whom low-level male violence is so ubiquitous and insidious that they don’t expect anything else.

OK, I'll bite. Although I have to say I am very skeptical of someone who describes themselves thus - I've always identified as a feminist". 'Identified as' translates in my head as 'want to be but know I'm not'. Plus, it suggests you subscribe to identity politics.

I have read only the OP's posts, so I may be repeating points others have made.

"Its the single sex spaces that I am getting stuck on. I understand the need to protect women and why others might be uncomfortable with a transwoman in a public toilet or changing area. But I also thing that there must be a way to reach some kind of compromise."
Well no, I don't think you do understand the need to protect women and why women might be uncomfortable with a male in a female space, because you then go on to suggest compromise - as in, the women should compromise. Or are you suggesting that the compromise should be that men get over their discomfort at having a transwomen in the gents, and transwomen get over their discomfort at using the gents? Now, if the latter is your compromise, all well and good. But if your compromise involves transwomen in the ladies, then you are clearly stating that women's safety is irrelevant and women's discomfort is less important that men's and transwomen's.

Tell me what your compromise is, so I can see if you do understand.

"I am not talking about self identifying, gender queer, non binary, cross dressing, etc, people. But if someone has gender dysphoria, has gone through steps to surgically change their body to match the gender they see themself as and has taken legal steps to change their identity then there needs to be some kind of acceptance."
And how exactly am I to tell which is which? I can't. Maybe if you know them personally, you might be sure of them, but looking at a male stranger in a female toilet, I can't. AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO.

As for 'there needs to be some kind of acceptance' - absolutely. We are well part the time when men should accept that not all men like the baggage that comes with being men, and for transwomen to accept that women have a right to their single-sex spaces. Or did you mean that women should just accept transwomen's wants overrule their needs? I suspect you do.

"I would never want to get into the situation where we police people's genitals"
Aren't you doing that already, by insisting you're talking about those who have had surgery? We know 80% keep their penises (probably more now as transactivism must be seen as a massive opportunity to a pervert). Anyway, it's weasel words. Genitals are automatically 'policed' by everyone respecting single-sex spaces. Those genitals don't walk into those spaces alone, you know - they come attached to a human who's been socialised to the norms of their sex.

"... and the idea that we only allow people who can "pass" access single sex areas doesn't work for me because I think that discriminates against people based on looks."
Oh, and we can't discriminate on looks, can we ? We can cause discomfort in women by allowing males into their spaces, but no, we can't make males feel uncomfortable that they look male. Get a grip. And who says that if they pass they can access female spaces? It might not cause the same level of discomfort in the women in that space at that time, but knowing there are transwomen stealthing their way in - wow, that makes me feel so comfortable! So safe!

Basically Magenta, you consider that since you are happy for transwomen to be in female spaces, we should all be happy. Newsflash - you don't get to give MY consent. That is mine, and mine alone.

Perfectly put WhereYouLeftIt, will be interesting to see what, if any, answers you get.

I accept your friend would prefer to use women's only space. But I wouldn't feel comfortable your friend using a woman's only space, I wouldn't feel safe. It's the reason I use women's only gym, if they allowed trans women I would cancel my subscription

I think the question to ask yourself, OP, is this:

You go into a motorway service station loo. The only other person in there is not a woman (and you know this, of course you do, because 99% of trans people in no way "pass"). You don't know them. You don't know they're "safe" like your nice friends. Do you instinctively do that internal risk assessment that you do when confined in a space alone with a strange male?

You know the answer, don't you? You do perform the internal risk assessment. Just as every other woman on the planet does - including the Terminally Woke Women, much as they'd never admit it in public.

So. There's your answer.

And in that loo - it’s the woman who turns tail and leaves, not the man.

And in that loo - it’s the woman who turns tail and leaves, not the man.

The woman leaves but not until after doing that rictus of a smile that is intended to communicate placation and de-escalation of any potential problem. The person who is not a woman and who stays, interprets that smile - which is not a smile but an instinctive flashing belisha beacon of internal alarm - as a sign of either passing or of welcome or both. Because, you know, they are not women and do not recognise the smile-that-is-not-a-smile.

And if the male does engage, the woman has to pretend not to notice the beard, say they like their hair/top/shoes and this all convinces the male that not only do they ‘pass’, but that they are better at ‘womaning’ than a woman.

it’s the woman who turns tail and leaves, not the man

If she works for the civil service, she'll then be called to a meeting for offending the man by leaving.

OP you must, by now, be seeing that to not be vigorously misogynistic is called transphobic. The evidence is right here on the thread.

A couple of people have asked if I truly see my trans friends as the gender they identify as, and the answer is yes. I have two friends that I would say I know and love about equally, I've spent similar amounts of time with them and have had various deep and meaningful conversations with them. I would share a bedroom or changing space with the one who is MTF but not the one who is FTM.

Well I asked if you really thought the original friend you mentioned was a woman, Your FTM friend didn't rate much of a mention in your first post (just as part of a group of trans friends), let alone a whole thread to themselves about their struggle and loveliness.

I said trans women get treated like men, with their interests and needs taking precedence over the female-born, and it certainly seems on this thread that's the case.

I'll mention again: what about the women who will be excluded from women's spaces and provisions if any male is present in them, regardless of the stage of transition or how they identify?

What about them?

They don't give a shit about them Michelleoftheresistance all that matters to those who follow this agenda is the men.

It is all about the men and their struggles as the OP has provided ample proof of.

Well the MRA poster seems to have no arguments that we haven't heard 100x before. Its interesting, that we must let transwomen use womens spaces as they are afriad of male violence. But at the same time males are not violent and theres nothing to worry about, when a woman does not want to be around males when in a more vulnerable space than usual.

I'd like to know what the OP's transman friend does to make the OP not want to share a space with them.

Many years ago I experienced this. I thought I was cool and open minded. Then a man at work chose to change gender and we were informed that once she returned to work she wished to share the female open plan changing rooms and shower for the gym. I realised that actually I was uncomfortable sharing that space with someone that appeared completely male, including full beard. I realised that I the appearance of someone matching their birth gender meant my spider senses fired irrespective of how 'cool' I wanted to be about it.

On another occasion I met a women who had been born male but who I would never have guessed. She passed as female. I worry about a situation where she would be asked to share open plan facilities with males as I perceived that she would be at risk.

I want a safe single sex space for women. In addition I would like a safe space for people that are vulnerable in any way. Having a third mixed space doesn't provide that. I think it would require single occupancy gender irrelevant environments. Anyone could use the space and be safe but we men can still have women only spaces.

A transpersons desire to be acknowledged as their chosen gender is not more important than a women's desire for a single sex environment.

I am interested to hear whether anyone could object to the above?

With regard to sports I believe you cannot allow people with unfair advantages to compete with others that do not have that advantage. Male bodies are in general stronger, carry more muscle,have longer stride etc. Women can generally not compete effectively against men in open sports events so it is not acceptable to allow people who choose to be seen as women but were born males to participate in women's events. You cannot undo the physical advantage with drugs and surgery. Equality is about equal opportunities not everyone being treated identically.

Its sad that, where I sought a rational debate free from satire, anecdote or stereotype, I found that a the debate is far from philosophical. Instead when initiating a basis for trans people I've been accused of being one, where I have read answers depicting the male violence we are all apparently so likely to suffer, I have been roundly rejected where asserting this as a concern!

Even where talking about femenisms (albeit narrow) acceptance of trans women, all I have met with is sattire!

Of course feminism is a valid pov, and a comparatively young one in popular culture , Still I can't help but be saddened to see it being overwhelmed by this to the point that we can't even agree with ourselves. All the while pointing the finger at everyone and anything else.

This debate is about using a rest room in essence and existing laws on harassment, violence and sexual harassment or violence already provide for what privacy and safety are necessary.

"rejoice, oh young (wo)man, in thy youth" but this debate is exhaustive and ultimately futile. The commission of feminism was about equality not trans rights, why now are we seeking to re categorise and sub categorise people based on having or not having a period?

I fear that this kind of internet populism will at best, quickly dilute our philosophy and struggle toward meaningful equality and fragment momentum on real issues. At worst this kind of mob rule will de-legitimise the gains we have made by turning us from champions of equality, to fickle and fundamental protagonists in the fight for a free and fair society for everybody!

I urge you all to remember that each victory and each loss is, at this stage, just a minor battle or turning point on the path to a society whose value isn't set on the colour of your skin, your creed, your sex or sexuality. In order for ALL to win we must all compromise!

Ultimately there will be losses as well as victories, In a short space of time we have achieved so much without a great deal of variation from seeking equality, but if equality is to remain our goal then there will be sacrifice. Pissing in a stall next door to a transsexual is a small compromise in a cause as big as humanity and we should have no time for those who rate their sacrifice in this compromise alongside that of Emily Wilding Davison or those who will rate equality so narrowly as to cap it at the cervix!

We have won a great deal, let us be ae magnanimous as we are restless! And justice will prevail!

Jesus fucking H Christ.

Jesus fucking H Christ.

There's pulpits... and there's pulpits!

Deary fucking me.

Theres a decision to be made here, its not a pulpit I hoped for. My own opinion aside, this place has a window of opportunity to engage with the fight for equality. Its loss or victory have a consequence for everyone, infant, child and adult.

Jesus fucking H Christ.

Just a tactical notation!

Getting back to the basic point. The word woman has an easily understood meaning. Women (or female) only spaces should mean just that.

If anyone is not comfortable using spaces specifically for their sex then we need to provide extra facilities. Women should not be expected to give up women only spaces.

Shab You think you've argued well, but you haven't. This place does have a 'window of opportunity to engage with the fight for equality', but to make the best use of that opportunity we have to be able to argue our case with at least some degree of understanding of how to debate our ideas and progress our arguments. From what I've read, you seem to possess neither of those credentials.