How would you feel about having a male midwide

[Lardlizard]

Just interested in the points of view

In saying that, I'd take a female who's not had kids who has empathy and an excellent manner over a shite one who happens to have kids. But as I said before, they shouldn't be tolerated, they should be reported.

(also forgot to mention the relationship/domestic aspect midwives are supposed to check on as well- they routinely, repeatedly ask about your relationship, home life and the possibility of any abuse .. domestic abuse against a woman is, Lundy Bancroft aside, generally something another female (who'sbeen tied to someone emotionally and financially in the way pregnancy and having kids makes you) can empathise in a way it's difficult for a man or even a single, childless woman can.

Likewise ante and PND, which midwives are supposed to be a port of call for help with (under the umbrella "mood") .. can a man truly empathise with and encourage confidence for such a specifically female type of depression that often alienates a mother from her child in a way that's difficult for men (and even women who haven't had kids) to understand and not judge?

Dinosaur

Before it's raised; certainly a woman suffering from ante or postnatal depression could be dealing with a midwife who has kids but has been lucky enough to be untouched by both, but she's still at least likely to be able to fully understand and empathise with the effect of hormones - through menstrual cycle, pregnancy, the post birth 'blues' etc in a way a man can't. There's always going to be something detached and distanced about his understanding and support.

How anyone could read some of the posts on here and be breezily dismissive of women's concerns, or worse liken the to racism is beyond belief.

I don't have a reason for not wanting male midwife, I just wouldn't like it. I'd be much less likely to confide in a male about breast feeding issues too.

I'm referring to all the other issues that midwives are supposed to help with before and especially after the birth.

Yeah and every single woman experiences this differently.

I work in the birth sphere and don't have kids and I am bloody excellent at my job.
I didn't know I wasn't going to have kids but here we are, and the suggestion that I am not good at my job because of that is disgusting.

(and even women who haven't had kids) to understand and not judge?

You are talking out your arse here.
Pnd affects everyone who suffers with it differently, there is no way to know what a woman is going through and thinking that you have an insight into someone's state of mind simply because you have had the same condition yourself is a fallacy.

You don't need to have gone through the same thing to have empathy, that's not how empathy works.

I have spent my entire professional life fighting for provisions for women with Pre and postnatal depression and access to better post natal physio even though I have not had children myself.

Yeah and every single woman experiences this differently.

That's a nice, handy line that's been used elsewhere in the thread, bug let's deal with patterns, commonalities, however you want to phrase it. Much as we think we're special snowflakes, the same or similar issues, feelings and experienced happen to women during pregnancy, birth and in the weeks and months afterward. You don't have to go very far to find someone who's had a similar issue/s to you. The parenting and birth board on here are testament to that.

While I have no doubt a woman who hadn't had a kid/children can be an excellent midwife - if her empathy, communication etc levels are superb .. I personally feel that that having been through it gives someone who is already good, abunique understanding. That's my preference, having dealt with midwives both with and without kids. Everyone has a right to a preference.

• but
• hasn't
• a unique

You don't need to have gone through the same thing to have empathy, that's not how empathy works.

But it helps if you have an inkling.

In that point I was referring to men/make midwives; do you really believe a man who's never experienced menstrual cycle hormonal fluctuations, PMS etc. is going to be able to empathise wonderfully with a type of depression that is specifically linked to hormonal changes and that could make a woman feel like she's hates or wants to abandon or even harm her child? Do you really think he'll find it easy to understand and empathise with those feelings, having been raised in our idealised motherhood/femininity society?
But more importantly than his empathy, do you really feel a woman would feel comfortable expressing that to a man, who.had never experienced any if those things, let alone birth trauma?

Pnd affects everyone who suffers with it differently, there is no way to know what a woman is going through

This is very true. I’ve had PND three times and it’s manifested itself differently each time. The second time I was so adamant I didn’t have it as it wasn’t the same thing! There’s no one size fits all. It’s great to talk to someone who understands what you’re going through, but no one actually knows the exact way you’re feeling even if they’ve experienced it themselves.

Moralitym1n1

I actually agree with Furrytoebean and I think sometimes it's disadvantageous to have a hcp who thinks they know what you are going through, simply because they have had something similar.

I had wonder if that's why the male midwives mentioned here are getting such high praise - is it that because they haven't and can't experience it that they are listening to women and being more open minded?

You've mentioned females understanding what PMS feels like and therefore understanding depression indicates this issue. I've got no idea what PND feels like. I can't even begin to imagine it. I've never had it.

I really don't think we can say that female midwives are better than male because they will be able to empathise based on sharing the same reproductive organs.

Women and men are equally able to be good and bad.

Whether you are happy to have a male midwife is totally the choice of the individual woman but I really don't think we can argue that it's based on male midwives not being as good.

Wouldn't bother me at all. As long as they are qualified and good at their jobs I don't mind who it is.

I also understand some studies are linking sleep deprivation with PND; back on more general 'parents Vs non parents' theme; its difficult for someone who hasn't been through it (unless they have experienced sustained sleep deprivation alongside stress, physical pain & anxiety (though anxiety about your new born offspring's survival and health is fairly unique) for some other reason) to truly understand the effect on your psyche.

Others may feel differently but I feel like, however sympathetic and we'll intentioned people are, if they haven't been through it they don't really understand on a visceral level. All the right noises etc alongside that detachment can often feel insincere and patronising to the receiver.

You've mentioned females understanding what PMS feels like and therefore understanding depression indicates this issue. I've got no idea what PND feels like. I can't even begin to imagine it. I've never had it.

Take it you've never had bad PMS then? Women who suffer from PMS are apparently more likely to suffer from pnd and depression in general.
I haven't suffered from Pnd but suffer from pms to varying degrees (worse since birth or perhaps it's age) and recognise what I've seen Pnd sufferers describe, I know exactly what they mean. That was my point.

In summary; hasn't everyone agreed that we should be given choice, if at all possible, as the person whose body is being 'treated'?

I live in a country with no such choice factored in to medical treatment.
All 4 of my children born with a male doctor assisting me at home, he's cried next to me while I held my stillborn baby and he's stitched me up while I've started trying to feed the other 3. I would choose him over any female offered and I sort of miss him now it's two years since a baby came along.

This is very true. I’ve had PND three times and it’s manifested itself differently each time. The second time I was so adamant I didn’t have it as it wasn’t the same thing! There’s no one size fits all. It’s great to talk to someone who understands what you’re going through, but no one actually knows the exact way you’re feeling even if they’ve experienced it themselves.

You may have felt it in a unique way each time, but your feelings and symptoms would not have been unique to you; if you get me.

It's more likely a woman would recognise some of the feelings than a man who has never had any sort of window into hormone related mood disorders.

But in any case someone made a point about empathy and that's certainly up for debate. I'm just saying that I personally feel that someone who has an inkling of how it feels to have PMs, have menstrual cycle related mood issues, be pregnant, give birth, have birth injuries, have the baby blues, have baby related stress and sleep deprivation etc etc could relate better, understand better and I'd feel more comfortable discussing it with them. That is just my personal preference/feeling. I find is the same in being a parent. Non patents can be very kind etc but it's the parents who say the rings that make you feel like they truly understand and that make you laugh and feel reassured.

• Take it you've never had bad PMS then? Women who suffer from PMS are apparently more likely to suffer from pnd and depression in general. I haven't suffered from Pnd but suffer from pms to varying degrees (worse since birth or perhaps it's age) and recognise what I've seen Pnd sufferers describe, I know exactly what they mean. That was my point.*

I seriously seriously hope you don't work with women with pnd if you think you know exactly what they mean because you get pms.

I haven't had a child, I have never had pnd, I also haven't had a child with colic, or a child I wanted but couldn't bond with, or a child I didn't want, or a baby that wouldn't latch.

I can still work with mothers who are going through this because I can say 'I have no idea what you're going through but these are the things that have been proven might help that we can work on. I am here to listen and support you.'

Judgement can be projecting what you think others are feeling onto them too.

*non parents

• things

do you really believe a man who's never experienced menstrual cycle hormonal fluctuations, PMS etc...

I've never had PMS. My hormones appear to be remarkably stable. I empathise with what I imagine PMS would be like, but I'd expect a man to be able to do that just as well... Would you also reject me from being your midwife?

I've probably got a strange view on whether women would raise intimate issues with men - I've had to, my parents died when I was young and I've had a lot of surgeries. There was nobody else to tell.

Furrytoebean said it perfectly.

I seriously seriously hope you don't work with women with pnd if you think you know exactly what they mean because you get pms.

Wow you are so patronising and ignorant.

Have you ever had severe PMS or PMDD - I doubt it or you wouldn't make a statement like that.

*I haven't had a child, I have never had pnd, I also haven't had a child with colic, or a child I wanted but couldn't bond with, or a child I didn't want, or a baby that wouldn't latch.

I can still work with mothers who are going through this because I can say 'I have no idea what you're going through but these are the things that have been proven might help that we can work on. I am here to listen and support you.'*

That's all very well and perhaps that would work for some people but I'd be sitting with my eyes glazed over, thinking you seemed like a nice lady and made all the right noises but couldn't really "get it". That's my personal feeling on it, we're all different.

I've never had PMS. My hormones appear to be remarkably stable. I empathise with what I imagine PMS would be like, but I'd expect a man to be able to do that just as well... Would you also reject me from being your midwife?

Where did I say I'd reject a woman from being my midwife? I've never once said that, I just said I'd prefer a midwife who'd been through it.

I put up with a straight out of college young midwife who seemed clueless and trotted out cliche after cliche because I appreciated people have to start somewhere, and because I had a straightforward pregnancy
She and her rushed colleagues standard of after care was totally shit, but that's another tangent.