Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children

[EweSurname]

Looks like it's dropped!

ShareToken links
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-the-treatment-of-gender-dysphoria-in-children-identity-check-pjfwhc6ck?shareToken=c88b21f7d4239de67a9d6ec43f84e946

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/psychiatrists-to-draw-up-new-rules-for-child-transgender-treatment-knl3b0g7c?shareToken=e0f0fd1ac1104e483412a61a08411353

I checked bbc news occasionally yesterday. An article on a transgender rap artist was a main thing on mine. Not this!

Shocking, but then gay people are at the bottom of the wokeing classes list of trendy minorities (especially lesbians) Imagine if you will, if we had the situation of bullied Muslim children being supported to convert to Christianity. It would rightly be a national scandal as this should be.

Just look at the last load of BBC transgender news articles here - biased or what?! How do they ignore something that was front page news on one of the major papers? I love the BBC but this encouragement of young people to hate their own bodies is utterly doing my nut.

Bit late but ChattyLion brilliant posts.

NHS England said: “The NHS’s approach needs to be clinically led but based on consideration of all available research evidence, international standards and public consultation.”* The "international standards" bit could be concerning given what happens in the US and Canada for example

Yes and "public consultation?" - guess who will he consulted.

If they only consult eg mermaids and only look to eg the US, then any such proposed changes will be meaningless.

This is a crucial paragraph in today’s Times:

The bigger questions, however, are for the NHS. It cannot be right that policies relating to physical interventions in children with such far-reaching consequences should be left to GIDS. In other contentious areas of care, the NHS takes a hands-on approach to setting protocols, gathering evidence and monitoring compliance. A similar approach is needed towards gender dysphoria, if only to guard against the risk that well-intentioned efforts to ease suffering today give rise to greater suffering in future.

I had an elective CS with son 2 after EMCS. The NICE protocol for CS and the supporting paient version (I read both before making my decision) were hugely informative, measured and evidence-based - in a much less contentious area of medical practice. As a patient, I felt I was able to make an informed decision. I am at a loss as to how the current approach with gender dysphoric children is in any way ethical or justified.

I'm sick to the back teeth of every single organisation citing the "lack of research" and lack of evidence".

GIDS itself has been operating a clinical service for young people struggling with gender identity issues for 30 years. And bizarrely seems to have no evidence to call on from its own operations during that time.

GIDS ditched their own research study on children and adolescents (which ran from 2010 - 2014), for reasons that they've never explained. And they did not follow-up on any of the patients as they became adults.

www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

I am in 2 minds.

1. Isn't it good that gender confusion is being viewed as a psychological problem which does not need to be separated out from other psychological services and that psychologists aren't allowed to sign off physical intervention? Phew, that's a far remove from reifying disorders in such a way that the world needs to change to accommodate them.

1. Is this going to be like the solution of putting dangerous dudes in a wing of a women's prison- ie not actually much different and a move designed to appease the lobbyist bullies? Are those 'international' standards going to be based on Yogyakarta principles and WPATH lies or on actual science?

Though the guidelines for elective Cs are written by clinicians who have experience in the field, it did also include a public consultation from interested parties (Inc lobby groups to an extent) in relative to their experiences. So I am slightly hesitant still.

It was led primarily by evidence though and the guidelines stress the strength and reliability of evidence and also crucially outline where there is a shortage of research recommending what areas this needs to be done in, in future to improve our understanding. (that means a big long term study, and particular interest in desisting. There's no way it won't). It should also have a few words to say about self harm and suicide and social contagion.

It assesses the short term and long term issues and complications associated with certain drugs. The loss of fertility aspect to this will be hugely important.

If you do go down the route of an elective Cs by choice 'without clinical indication' (aka you haven't been recommended one for physical reasons) there is a table of all the possible complications that you are supposed to be talked through. It's very comprehensive and isn't glossed over.

NICE also is very much concerned about cost effectiveness too. It won't recommend something which is expensive and has long term costs without good reason (aka evidence its worth it).

There are pluses and minus to this. But then that's what should help to make it unbiased.

I can imagine a section about underdue and peer pressure though.

This is the DSM V criteria for diagnosing children with gender dysphoria.

How is this anything other than children failing to adhere to stereotypes?

www.researchgate.net/publication/296700032_The_DSM-5_Diagnostic_Criteria_for_Gender_Dysphoria

I should add that knowing the system is generally more important than the guidelines though. Anyone who spends time understanding them can use them to fit their aims - push back in terms of child protection I fear still would only be as good as the backbone of the clinician involved.

Where it might help though would be to give power to parents who do have more concerns and don't believe in affirmation only. It would dilute some of the influence of the tra lobbyists and give power to groups like trans gender trend, which in turn would legitimatise the likes of transgender trend in schools.

Which then brings quite a few things into question in education. Certainly no debate would be over.

Smashing that allows teachers with safeguarding concerns to stop being in fear for their careers.

But it has to be a strictly clinical lead process - and I'd be happier if it was through NICE rather than another body.

Kids without a strong advocate could still be very vulnerable though

How is this anything other than children failing to adhere to stereotypes?

It isnt. It's all stereotypes. What are these boys toys and girls toys? Dd has shopkins. She also has Lego fire trucks.

Shame on the adults for indulging this crap instead of just letting them.play with what they want.

Ewe that is infuriating.

It says 'assigned gender' and conflates sex and gender throughout.

It needs to be re-written using 'sex', 'stereotypes', 'roles' and consistent use of 'feminine' and 'masculine'.

People who are clearly on planet la la land have no business writing a diagnostic manual.

What next for the manual? People who claim to have been abducted by aliens will have 'thruster blindness', 'space retraction', 'abdominal experiment pain' and 're-entry memory loss'?

FFS what a bunch of charlatans.

DD1 best friend identifies as a trans boy, I think they've been referred to the Tavi. They don't even fulfil that criteria (which Ewe posted), they don't, not the crucial 6. So why are they being treated as trans? I am genuinely terrified for this child.

GIDS ditched their own research study on children and adolescents (which ran from 2010 - 2014), for reasons that they've never explained. And they did not follow-up on any of the patients as they became adults.
2014/15 was when Ruth Hunt changed the direction of Stonewall, and Mermaids funding took off.

I'm also very disturbed at how the second box states " strong desire to be the other gender"

Yet no where does it suggest looking into why.

I've said before, it doesn't take a genius to work out that given the extremely high rates of girls being sexually harassed on way to and at school , it wouldnt be at all surprising if girls attempted to identify out of this shit

Especially as instead if dealing with the poor behaviour if the men and boys harassing them the girls are blamed for asking fir it for wearing skirts that are " too short"

As if it doesnt happen in trousers

Girls are also routinely used as a behaviour control method in classrooms.

If you had so much responsibility whilst still trying to learn and do the work yourself and being held responsible for everything that happens to you , it must he hugely tempting to shave your head wear a football kit and strap your breasts down.

What other mental illness is treated this way?

Yes you are fat?

Yes there really are bugs crawling all over your skin lets shower you in raid.

Yes everyone really is out to get you.

Yes aliens are coming for you.

Listen to the voices do as they tell you.

.........

The only basis for trans the DSM or any other such document can use is lack of stereotypical behaviour and preferences. Which are entirely based on the place and time e.g historically pink was a boy colour and children of both sexes wore dresses

BMJ
Published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

open access link here:
www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490.full?ijkey=6lX93kQA0lz5YoB&keytype=ref

It's interesting that when sevenhex writes about her transition and experiences as a child it appears to only really rest on number 7 from that list.

sevenhex.com/i-transsexual-part-i/

That article says it all R0 let's hope those concerns are fed in.

This is the current GIDS Tavistock Service Contract.
It will next be reviewed in December 2019
Its worth reading through as includes the various protocols & reveals a great deal about its ideology:

www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/gender-development-service-children-adolescents.pdf

And a bit of number 5.

A child I taught when assessed wasn't classed as having dysphoria had all except number 7. As soon as they had it explained to them they could absolutely be their sex and like the stuff they liked, they were happy. But their parents were always supportive of their self expression but as their sex. The child became distressed and confused through societal pressures and the suggestion from an older teen relative who'd watched things on tv that they were 'in the wrong body.' Later diagnosed with asd too.