Good things that happen when you wear an "Adult Human Female" hoodie

[Candidpeel]

I live in mine when I'm not at work....

Mainly get smiles from older women and glares from blue haired teenagers.

Wore it on the Brexit March and "like your jumper" worked as a secret handshake to find a new member for our local GC meet-up group

Answered the door to a council election candidate in it today and had a great conversation about what the gender critical grown ups are trying to do to bring the Green party to its senses.

I haven't yet bumped into another hoodie wearer in the wild :)

What has happened to you when you wear yours?

So what you're saying, Fridasrage, is that this is a classic negotiating ploy.

No, what i'm saying is that there can't be progress made if each side is going to refuse to engage or treat each other with respect.

I don't think the perception that this slogan (or standing up for women's rights in general) is transphobic is the fault of women.

Neither do I, I think it's primarily the fault of a small minority of hard line gender critical feminists who have used it in an unhelpfully inflammatory context.

Without discussing my personal feelings on the subject, because i'm more interested in the actual debate getting done, I genuinely believe that to the extent that parts of the debate are zero-sum, gender critical feminists are going to lose (which is already starting to happen). There's nastiness and a lack of willing to compromise on both sides, but as trans people traditionally have had fewer rights and are seen as more vulnerable, it plays worse for GCFs. I think that engaging compassionately and being respectful is a basic requirement for any debate, but it isn't just a duty to make other people feel better. It's likely to lead to more success for GCFs in terms of negotiating women only spaces etc.

For me it's a positive statement and a rallying cry. I am not trying to offend anyone and I'll always have a constructive discussion but I'm thinking about women and girls, not the feelings of TW.

It really does make sense.

I don't believe the hoody is making a difference. You either already know what it means and it's simply a way of saying you're in the GC club or it's a non thing. That's not informing anyone of anything.

Of course it makes a difference!

This is a subject which is framed by fear. Fear of speaking the truth or being openly gender critical.

Whilst it is about saying you are 'in the club' as you phrase it, it's more than that.

It smashing the taboo of speaking the truth.

I've been on MN a long time. When I first started I started to talk about fear of birth over ten years ago, no one did. No one.

Now people do.

It's about demonstrating that you are not alone and having strength in numbers. It's a psychological thing which gives back power.

It's a rejection of this monolithic 'liberal identity' bullshit where everyone must say the right things and walk on eggshells.

And that's really what those who practice darvo are annoyed by.

The fracturing of their hold on others.

This is an ideology which is offensive to women, to lesbians and to non-whites on a regular basis and half the time no one bars an eyelid at how offensive it is cos they are all too busy nodding along!

Fuck that!

socfem19 I agree on the need to be clear about the difference between sex and gender. But I think it is important to defend the biological meaning of the word woman, because in the law it is "women" not "female" which is a protected characteristic of sex.

So if we allow the word to be redefined to mean gender /gender identity then we are allowing the law to be subverted, losing protections for women and the language to be able to talk about it.

The push to accept TWAW redefines the rest of us women as having a "gender identity" even if we don't believe in innate gendered ladybrains.

I also think we can never win the debate about what is offensive. If we retreat from "women", they also want to claim "female", if we hedge around it further and talk about male-bodied and female-bodied that is said to be offensive to people who identify their penis as part of their "female" body.

I don't think there is any way to state that that someone is male (sex) and not female (sex), which will not be seen as non-offensive by those that want to prevent us making this differentiation.

I'm sure we all think our own personal opinions are the correct ones.

I don't think there is any way to state that that someone is male (sex) and not female (sex), which will not be seen as non-offensive by those that want to prevent us making this differentiation.

Exactly. This is the heart of the matter. You have Dr Christian railing against Vancouver Rape Relief for their crime of being the only rape centre in Vancouver centring the rights of women (the same right specifically mentioned in our Equality Act, which is ignored by TRAs). Even if you called them "female" he'd say the same.

At 02.35 guitargeek posted:

I haven't said the definition isn't correct, just that I don't think a hoodie is the way to get your point across..

I think it is ONE of the ways. A good way. That's just me.

But go on, guitargeek, you must have some better ideas to get our point across - please share.

It's my favourite piece of clothing and I don't wear it to be goady. I wear it because it took me two weeks to get up the courage to wear it outside the house. I wear it because I was genuinely scared to. And then when I did, nothing happened apart from I was outside and warm

THIS! Absolutely!

It feels scary to wear it in public the first time, and then nothing bad happens and sometimes good things happen (like smiles and conversations and meeting new people)... And then we get braver, and there are more of us getting braver.

For me it's a motivator and a reminder to be brave, because being scared to wear a fucking jumper with a dictionary definition means things have got bad.

YES!

Please can you explain what you mean by transpeople have fewer rights then woman in the UK.

Candidpeel emboldened by not being burned as a witch I've started having GC conversations IRL recently. And everyone agrees and everyone is horrified and none of them had realised.

So for me, hoodie is working.

Well done

"I don't think the perception that this slogan (or standing up for women's rights in general) is transphobic is the fault of women."

Neither do I, I think it's primarily the fault of a small minority of hard line gender critical feminists who have used it in an unhelpfully inflammatory context.

Kelly-Jay Keen-Minshull (Posie Parker) explains in this interview alongside Adrian Harrop why the black & white dictionary definition of woman = adult human female was chosen:

OP has asked for stories of Good things that happen when you wear an "Adult Human Female" hoodie.

Here's mine:

Sat in dentist's waiting room. Man opposite smiles and says, "My wife has one of those but she's too nervous to wear it out when she's on her own. I'm going to tell her about you tonight."

Otherwise, aside from the times I was giving out FPFW leaflets during the GRA consultation, nobody has remarked on or stared at any of my GC t-shirts and hoodies. In case you hadn't guessed, I don't live in a pocket of Woketopia!

I genuinely believe that to the extent that parts of the debate are zero-sum, gender critical feminists are going to lose (which is already starting to happen).

As many people have already posted. Without the pushback, organised by courageous women, self ID would be law, or very close to it.

I think it's primarily the fault of a small minority of hard line gender critical feminists who have used it in an unhelpfully inflammatory context.

Up until this point I had a lot of sympathy for your point that civility, reason and compromise go a long way, but this is bonkers.

The 'worst' GC women are a rude and uncompromising. You could argue in some cases some of them border on harassing (though they would argue what they do attracts attention and they are otherwise ignored).

The worst TRAs assault women, commit vandalism, threaten venues, intimidate women trying to meet, tell women to die in a fire, call anyone who disagrees nazis, scream at people and threaten rape. Much of this is from or excused by mainstream campaigners and long predates the feminist response.

No reasonable observer (I am not a feminist and come from a very pro trans rights PoV) could claim that the toxicity comes from GC feminists. It is to their credit (an part of why they are winning) that they do not respond in the same way. Real transphobia on here doesn't last 5 minutes, because people don't like it.

Anyone starting to see I'm GC but... as the new I'm not racist but...?!

I'm not GC but... I disapprove of any expression of GC opinion done in public, any evidence of women behaving a in non-compliant manner, any word or deed that does not consider male feelings above women's interests.

So no. There are not 'better' (you mean nicer, quieter, more tactful, unseen, ineffective) ways to do this. Particularly since that particular social contract definitely doesn't extend both ways.

I don't mean that, thanks, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree. My mind is never going to be changed by a hoody slogan but I'm happy to accept I may be in the minority.
I'll carry on with my own ways of raising the GC view, even if they are non-clothing based and therefore ineffective

It's a rather forlorn attempt at divide and conquer. Never works.

Bunbury's seminal work De-Centring Women has quite interesting things to say about the ways in which conversations intended to centre and celebrate women's public political statements are instead flying monkeyed into defending criticisms of them.

OP's thread - with Good things in its title - was intended as celebratory. Let's stick to celebratory!

I am inspired to wear my merchandise out now.

I haven't been brave enough before.

OP's thread - with Good things in its title - was intended as celebratory. Let's stick to celebratory!

Very fair point. I promise not to feed further.

I do think that Frida's 'be nice, be quiet' points have done nothing but help the GC argument, even if not intended that way.

What the t shirts and hoodies have also done is given women a way to break their silence.
I do actually agree with this. I'm not trying to stop anyone wearing them, as, again, another poster has suggested. Wear what you like; I'm saying that I would feel goady and tribalist wearing it. Others clearly feel differently and I am ok with that!

You know it's time to leave a thread when you have to spend more time telling people what you didn't say rather than what you did

Anyone starting to see I'm GC but... as the new I'm not racist but...?!

Oh yes.

Bunbury, as ever, is quite right, Lang.

AdultHuman I do really recommend it. It has made me so much braver. Plus, you know, great pocket.

Bunbury's seminal work De-Centring Women has quite interesting things to say about the ways in which conversations intended to centre and celebrate women's public political statements are instead flying monkeyed into defending criticisms of them.

OP's thread - with Good things in its title - was intended as celebratory. Let's stick to celebratory!

Both excellent points.

I'm sorry but we have to negotiate for women-only spaces, why exactly? If the "other side" wanted respectful debate we wouldn't be in this mess. We are adult human females, women, and have rights within the law. We are not on the attack but find ourselves having to defend biological reality, for ourselves and for our children. What I would like to discuss is how a very small subset of the population has been allowed to redefine language in order to accommodate their fetish/delusion (I say that because I do not believe the old-skool transsexuals have the same motivations as the mysoginist TRAs who are pushing all this.) Woman = adult human female. Period.