Good things that happen when you wear an "Adult Human Female" hoodie

[Candidpeel]

I live in mine when I'm not at work....

Mainly get smiles from older women and glares from blue haired teenagers.

Wore it on the Brexit March and "like your jumper" worked as a secret handshake to find a new member for our local GC meet-up group

Answered the door to a council election candidate in it today and had a great conversation about what the gender critical grown ups are trying to do to bring the Green party to its senses.

I haven't yet bumped into another hoodie wearer in the wild :)

What has happened to you when you wear yours?

If transwomen were actually women and transmen were actually men, then the (potential) transmen offspring of landed gentry would be inheriting titles and land - rather than the (potential) transwomen offspring. When it comes to money, biology counts.

In practice when I wear it (and this may be because I don't live in a particularly woke studenty place) I've never had anyone say it is offensive.

I don't see it as goady.

I think the main reaction I've noticed is a gender critical smile or "nice jumper" which sometimes leads to a conversation.

I agree that wearing a shirt with a slogan is not the highest form of political engagement. But I think what it does in this case is to signal to others that it is OK to be "out" about being gender critical.

It also quells the rage, if you are feeling it ... And yes the pocket is handy.

A hoodie saying "immigrants weren't born here" is incorrect because some were. Lots of British born people move to other countries.
It's also not the dictionary definition of immigrants.

You obviously can do what you want and be GC in your own way. And other people will do what they think is best.

Why not spend some time telling trans people not to say that TWAW?

Getting offended is a choice. It's not my job to say things that won't get people offended, to protect them from facts so that they won't get offended. I'm a professional writer in my other life; I don't walk on eggshells.

THIS

Whether you personally find it offensive or not, you clearly understand that some people will find it offensive

If you are offended by reality, then you are going to have a huge problem with life. Someone wearing a hoodie saying that isn't your problem. It's an inability to accept that you can't wave a magic wand and make everyone 'nice' and make everyone believe that everyone is equal. The world is unequal. How we adapt to, not ignore, that inequality is crucial.

I'm sorry but spelling out an issue that people want to avoid is fair enough. That how you tackle it. Not by sweeping it under the carpet wailing that you are so offended.

Be grown up and discuss differences.

We can't go through life avoiding saying difficult things in case it upsets someone.

'Oh dear, we lost that big order Alex messed up, but if I say anything to Alex, it will be really awkward. Alex will have a meltdown, like always when something goes wrong. I'll just have to bite my tongue ...'

But I think what it does in this case is to signal to others that it is OK to be "out" about being gender critical.

Yes, exactly. And it is. We shouldn't have to speak in fucking riddles.

@RedToothBrush

Be grown up and discuss differences.

This is the thing that bothers me.

So as i've repeated many times, i haven't weighed in whatsoever on whether I find it offensive and i've said that i think people should be able to make such statements.

I think there's a huge problem with people pretending that they don't know why other people would find this offensive though. It is disingenuous.

There are real discussions needed regarding balancing trans rights with the rights of women, for example, to women-only spaces. We really need to have these debates openly and we need them now.
This is being hampered by the fact that the debate is so polarised and so vitriolic.

If we're all being realistic, the solution isn't going to be that trans people have no rights, and it isn't going to be that trans women have exactly the same experiences and access as biologically female people. It'll be somewhere in the middle.

There needs to be some degree of compromise and mutual understanding from both sides of the debate, and in order to do that we need to start acting in good faith and not totally dismissing the concerns of the people on the opposite side of the table.

You obviously can do what you want and be GC in your own way. And other people will do what they think is best.

Just in case this was directed at me, i haven't said whether i'm GC or not.

Remainers are deeply offended by pro Brexit slogans and vice versa

I disagree with this. I'm not offended by pro Brexit slogans. There are lots of pro Brexit slogans which I disagree with but I don't find offensive.

Where I DO have a problem it tends to involve implicit direct threats against individuals and groups.

I also have seen quite a number of remain placards which I regard as in bad taste and poorly thought out.

More often than not, if I see a slogan I disagree with I just think it wrong rather than be offended by it.

A dictionary definition is not an attack. It's a reflection of how the definition of women is under attack.

Anyone having a problem with it, might want to reflect on it.

In this sense 'offended' is the wrong term. It's an uncomfortable feeling connected to being reminded of the truth.

Calling it offense is a DARVO response.

If we can not defend reality than we have a society which can do anything to us.

Orwell said it all.

This is the whole point of it. Women should not defend their reality, especially in visible ways, because it offends male born people who find boundaries around womanhood based on reality to be excluding and upsetting and offensive. Women stating known fact and dictionary definitions has become framed as mean and nasty. Because poor TW.

If TW had any respect for the class they are so desperate to control and colonise they would not be offended by this. The general public unaware (yet) of how far a political lobby wish to take this will merely look at the t shirts/hoodies and go yes, of course? Anti reality should not be framed as offensive, and no group should demand that other people's facts and reality be fictionalised so as not to be offensive.

So no. There are not 'better' (you mean nicer, quieter, more tactful, unseen, ineffective) ways to do this. Particularly since that particular social contract definitely doesn't extend both ways.

Great posts, Red and Knickknack

Also, there isn't a group of people who were "not born here" loudly declaring that they were born here, and everyone should now go along with this fiction, based on the fact that they believe it to be true.

I disagree with this. I'm not offended by pro Brexit slogans. There are lots of pro Brexit slogans which I disagree with but I don't find offensive.

And this is a fair point, I didn't really think about it, just used a divisive political issue that both sides feel very strongly about.

Women have compromised, it was a disastrous tactic.

If we're all being realistic, the solution isn't going to be that trans people have no rights, and it isn't going to be that trans women have exactly the same experiences and access as biologically female people. It'll be somewhere in the middle.

They have rights already.

So what you're saying, Fridasrage, is that this is a classic negotiating ploy.

'We want X. If we start off by asking for X they'll laugh at us. So we'll say we want Y, which would be much worse for them. They'll be aghast and will spend a lot of time telling us why we can't have Y and all the problems it will cause. We'll pretend to listen and accept some of those points. Then we'll say 'OK, how about X? It doesn't give us everything we want but we could live with it'. They'll be so relieved they'll agree. Job done.'

Well, sorry, no. When the GRA 2004 was passed Parliament was assured there would be 5000 people in the UK eligible to apply for a GRC, of whom around two thirds would be biological males. Although it wasn't a legal requirement to have surgery/hormone treatment to get a GRC, most back then would have done. That was a tiny number of transwomen to accommodate in society so nobody was too concerned, if they even knew it was happening.

But now the numbers are at least 100 times bigger. That's a huge issue. And the tactics the most virulent transactivists have used have backfired spectacularly. There are a lot of people like me who'd never even thought about this issue until suddenly discovering that we are now expected to give up lots of hard-won rights without discussion or complaint. And now I am thinking about it I'm not happy with the legal fiction of the GRC either.

I would be much happier if society started trying to get away from gender stereotyping. I reckon far fewer people would suffer from gender dysphoria in that case.

I also want to see some honesty about the role of fetishes in all of this for some older bio males. Why do we the rest of us have to validate that? Keep it behind closed doors, please.

This is being hampered by the fact that the debate is so polarised and so vitriolic.

Why do you think that is, primarily?

It's quite pathetic to keep calling guitar a man when she's said quite clearly she is female.

Twa not w but the hoody is silly, because everyone knows that. If they do not agree they are hardly likely to change their mind becau9sr of your jumper. It's me at 17 with my you have the right to arm bears shirt.

Like a pp's world peace shirt it did precisely fuck all and most certainly didn't end hunting.

We are not a hive mind (as we keep telling TRA) but some people seem to get really shitty when anyone disagrees with them.

That said I wish posters who say they won't post here again would reconsider because #yesthereisadebate and it's all words on a screen!

"In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell

"If you want to keep a secret, you must also hide it from yourself."
George Orwell, 1984

"The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history."
George Orwell

" But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought."
George Orwell, 1984

"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
George Orwell

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."
George Orwell

"Being in a minority, even in a minority of one, did not make you mad. There was truth and there was untruth, and if you clung to the truth even against the whole world, you were not mad."
George Orwell, 1984

"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."
George Orwell, 1984

Orwell is a hero of those who seek freedom and liberty.

I think there's a huge problem with people pretending that they don't know why other people would find this offensive though. It is disingenuous.

I don't think that is what happened. I think people were using irony to make rhetorical point about how unreasonable it is be made nervous wearing the definition of womanhood.

To move this along, I'm sure everyone accepts that there will be two groups offended (in the broad sense) by this:

1. The woke professional offence takers. I'll be surprised if anyone is concerned by that.

1. People with gender dysphoria who may feel the slogan is hostile. I'm sure most on here would be quite bothered by the thought of causing genuine distress.

I don't think the perception that this slogan (or standing up for women's rights in general) is transphobic is the fault of women. As red says above, disagreement is not offensive.

I also think that you may be wrong about proportion of trans people upset.

There are lot of (gender critical) posters from before this section became popular who I still notice around MN but notably don't post in FWR anymore. I think it's a real shame.

I think I find the adult human female thing a bit confusing because I believe the best way to win protection for female women is to separate out sex and gender. Woman is a word attached to gender and female to sex. Why not separate them out rather than binding them together? Compromise at the idea that there can be male and female women but that sex matters - recognising that female women are more materially oppressed/subject to violence than male women on the whole and require their own protected space separately from male women? This is not saying the a male is in fact a female, but it recognises what some wish to be recognised: that their sense of gender (whatever this is, and it can be debated) doesn't match their sex. But it also makes clear that their sex remains an important part of how they will be responded to, and therefore how their brains develop, and therefore how they conduct themselves or expect to be treated, and male pattern offended and so on. It seems like the best compromise to me. Although I realise that some are fighting the loss of the meaning of woman, I personally think that we need to be more clear about the fact that it is female space we wish to protect first and foremost, and if that were protected the rest is semantics and can be debated in a less urgent way over time.

I prefer to focus on the fact that females are oppressed as a sex class, based on our reproductive potential and that 'male women' are not.

So I wouldn't wear one of the A.H.F. t-shirts personally. Plus, if I did there is a high probability I would lose my home and most friends, so some are more able to take a risk than others in this respect. But kudos to those who believe in it and are doing it. I think that sometimes a very strong statement must be made to clear the way for discussion.