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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

‘More acceptance’ of S&M needed

999 replies

Imnobody4 · 25/03/2019 10:05

talkradio.co.uk/news/more-acceptance-needed-sm-activities-19032230392
My morning isn't starting well. Haven't heard the programme - not sure I could stand it.

OP posts:
MsLucyLastic · 28/03/2019 12:47

@abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise - I didn't feel at any point that I had to put my partner first. My partner WANTED me to take it further.

To be blunt, I loved my partner, and I did not want the world to know that we had an open relationship and that my partner was happy to be a cuckold. I didn't want strangers knowing the details of our sex life. Which would have come out in court.

I chose privacy over justice, knowing that the chances of conviction for rape are slim. My partner wanted justice and didn't care about our sex life coming out. I did. I knew what his family would think. I loved my partner more than I wanted to spend any more brain space on the inadequate who raped me.

Also, BDSM is NOT stopping convictions. Lack of knowledge on the side of the police and judiciary, together with the full weight of the law not being implemented. That is stopping convictions.

Men attack women with hammers.....we don't seek to ban hammers. We see that the hammer was used in an inappropriate and criminal way. BDSM is a tool being used as an excuse by some psychopaths.

It is up to law enforcement and the judiciary to see through this and uphold the law properly. Assault is unable to be consented to. Full stop. Whether in BDSM or otherwise. So it should never be a defence to anything.

Qsandmore · 28/03/2019 14:01

Lucy May I ask, genuine question, I’m not well educated on the “scene”. If assault cannot be consented to (which I agree with but the police and law clearly don’t!), they does that mean BDSM never results in injuries?

The man who hurt me left me black and blue on my chest with scratches, damage to the back of my throat. Whiplash and lower back pain. The police state that that’s ok as the BDSM community lobbying has made that levels of violence not assault when sex is involved.

By saying you agree we can’t consent to assault does that mean none of the community ever injurs one another in their “play”, there is no bruising/hurt?

I struggle to understand a little!

Furrytoebean · 28/03/2019 14:02

but I really hope and wish that we can pull together and make a difference and stop the abuse of the vulnerable. Maybe this is a wish too far, but I can dream

Well this is extremely emotionally manipulative.

AIBUtopickanyoldname · 28/03/2019 14:04

This is a fascinating and very informative thread. I tend to agree that BDSM really ought to stay underground and practised between people who understand the boundaries.

But given that it’s now crossed irreversibly into the mainstream I think there needs to be much more clarity around the definition of BDSM and the legal framework for consent, so that there’s no ambiguity whatsoever. I see a lot of parallels with the TRA movement. Taking a niche, underground ‘identity’ and appropriating it to further a malignant agenda under the guile of ‘persecuted minority’. I personally think that in general people need to rein in their expectations and entitlement to special consideration which is predicated on nothing more than a non-mainstream preference. No one is obliged to accommodate something they personally find distasteful at the expense of their own comfort.

I was very confused by this point made by Lucy below...

they would have been gutted if they had hurt me, but they have got off on seeing my pleasure which they are totally responsible for. That is what has turned my Doms on

I can’t see how what you’ve described is in any way different to how I’d describe my husband’s attitude to our own sexual relationship. He would be devastated to hurt me - as I would him - and he gets pleasure from giving me pleasure - as I do him. So what’s different about BDSM? As far as I can see, it’s the acts themselves, which are simulations of violence. I struggle to square the idea that someone could at once be abhorred by the idea of inflicting actual violence on their partner and turned on by their enthusiasm for the idea. There’s a disconnect there. Something doesn’t ring true.

Stopthisnow · 28/03/2019 14:08

“Is there an agreed feminist analysis of S&M? I do not believe that there is.

There is certainly a radical feminist analysis”

I do not accept that to simply call what is actually queer theory/sexual liberationist arguments ‘feminist’ actually makes them feminist arguments. The same as I don’t accept that when a male calls himself a woman it actually make him a woman. Simplistically relabelling something the direct opposite of what it actually is does not make it become the thing it claims to be. For example, if someone endorsed capitalist ideas, but called themselves and their arguments communist it would not make them communist, words have meanings, playing semantic games does not change reality.

“What concerns me about the radical feminist discourse regarding this issue is that it does not engage with thinking about desire.”

Radical feminism (actual feminism) does engage ‘with thinking about desire’, where is comes from and why. What it does not do is claim that all desires should be passively accepted without critique and acted upon.

“Everything is simply causally attributed to the patriarchy and there is a strong element of confirmation bias it certainly feels like this to me, of the policing of debate and of thought.”

In order to avoid cognitive dissidence those that engage in S&M have to try to reposition it as somehow about ‘female empowerment’ or ‘as a tool of dealing with trauma’ etc. If they didn’t do this they would have to reassess what they are doing and whether it is actually unhealthy and harmful to women as a group. Of course they don’t want to do this as it would mean facing the prospect that S&M is harmful to women as a group, so they prefer queer theory/sexual liberationist arguments (which have had a hold on the social sciences including psychology for sometime), so that they can carry on engaging in S&M without cognitive dissonance. Whether one realises their arguments are based on queer theory/sexual liberationist arguments is somewhat immaterial in the end.

“One of the main issues I have with TRAs is the policing of language and of narratives. I aways distrust any invitation to attribute the factors for any phenomena to simplistic causes.”

That is a reversal of what is actually going on. It is the advocates of S&M that use the excuse of ‘kink shaming’ in order silence an actual feminist critique of S&M. It is advocates of S&M that think simplistically calling it ‘empowering’, and pretending it is somehow ‘feminist’ actually makes it so.

“While it can feel very reassuring and comfortable to live in a world where good and evil are clearly identifiable and where one feels a sense of absolute certainty about ones convictions reality just does not work like like that.”

The reality is that we live in a male dominated society, where males rape and abuse females in high numbers, where females are taught to eroticise being submissive/masochistic. Rather than doing something to address this fact, and acknowledging the part the promotion of S&M as a harmless ‘kink’ plays in upholding this, S&M advocates do not wish to have their ‘kinks’ curtailed, so come up with various justifications of why it is actually healthy and not a bad thing for women as a group. The arguments being put forth in favour of S&M are not anything feminists have not heard thousands of times previously.

MagicMix · 28/03/2019 14:20

I see a lot of parallels with the TRA movement. Taking a niche, underground ‘identity’ and appropriating it to further a malignant agenda under the guile of ‘persecuted minority.

This is exactly how it went down. And when people tried to say hang on this is not a sexuality, it's a fetish, and a huge number of you are just standard straight people, they were able to respond with well it's LGBT now, not LGB, and people made the same arguments about the T so why not us too?

I am waiting in sick anticipation for the day they want to start including it in sex education lessons for school children. The day is coming.

abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise · 28/03/2019 14:26

MsLucyLastic I don't wish to be too provocative over such a sensitive issue, and will not judge a woman's difficult decision to prosecute her rapist or not, but what you have described is indeed putting your partner's well-being first, in a self-sacrificing manner.

AIBUtopickanyoldname · 28/03/2019 14:28

That’s the ultimate metric of ‘acceptance’ isn’t it? Teach it to the kids so that they normalise it.

“A woman and a woman can love each other.” Yep, fine.

“A man and a man can love each other.” Cool.

“A man can turn into a woman just by feeling like one.” Um... okay..?

“Sometimes men like to show their love for women by hitting them and humiliating them.” WTF?

MagicMix · 28/03/2019 14:37

For a generation of children raised on a diet of internet pornography the idea that some people's natural sexuality is to enjoy being subordinated and some people's natural sexuality is to enjoy forceful dominating their partner will be an easy sell.

And of course it will just so coincidentally turn out that it is mostly girls who are naturally subordinate and mostly boys who are naturally dominant. You can't change nature, that's just the way the world is and the way it always will be. Shut up feminists, stop shaming the natural order.

agirlhasnonameX · 28/03/2019 14:48

@AIBUtopickanyoldname I realise the question wasn't addressed to me, but since I agree with her, I assume that she means that there is a difference between 'actual violence' and practices that can sometimes take place in BDSM.
Violence is intended to hurt someone, BDSM activities are intended to please and satisfy and if either party where to feel they where hurt, everything would stop. If I where to ask my Dominant to do something that could cause severe damage or death, no matter how much I wanted it, being the Dominant party and having a huge responsibility, he would not. It may look like violence but it is not.
I am probably not thinking this trough clearly, but I can't help but feel someone telling me I can't be submissive because I am a woman and that is what is expected of me, is any different from someone telling me I can't or shouldn't do anything else simply because I am a woman.

WeRiseUp · 28/03/2019 14:50

Sorry. Didn't read the thread but here is my take on kink BDSM.

Kink and BDSM is sexual disfunction, perversion and psychosexual sickness. It ranges from 'light' or 'consensual' through to criminal sadistic abuse, rape, murder, paedophilia, etc.

The stuff people try to normalise as 'harmless', 'adults in private' stuff is the thin end of the wedge and indicates there is something unhealthy and wrong sexually.

Just because lots of people get off on kink and BDSM doesn't mean it's all normal and good, it just shows that a lot of people are fucked-up and need to see a therapist.

BigGoat · 28/03/2019 14:58

It is the advocates of S&M that use the excuse of ‘kink shaming’ in order [..to] silence an actual feminist critique of S&M. It is advocates of S&M that think simplistically calling it ‘empowering’, and pretending it is somehow ‘feminist’ actually makes it so.

This so much.

I wrote to the attorney general in protest over the sentencing of Natalie Connolly and I literally have a little sick in my mouth at requests to open my eyes and heart to the 'consensual' sexual self-harm community. Did the BDSM community come out to campaign against the conviction, were there clamors of 'not in my name'....
no? too busy advocating for greater acceptance?

dragging out your kink shaming speak and using NRA worthy tropes..its not the Kink that killed her, its the man who pulled the trigger... ...nice work sisters.

RIP Natalie Connolly, you've not been forgotten.

Cel982 · 28/03/2019 15:00

My partners haven't got off on hurting me, they would have been gutted if they had hurt me, but they have got off on seeing my pleasure which they are totally responsible for. That is what has turned my Doms on.

Lucy (and others), isn't it somewhat naive to accept the narrative that a man's pleasure in BDSM is wholly due to the response of his partner to his actions, and nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of those actions themselves? It would be remarkably unselfish as the basis for a relationship, and you would think that for someone who didn't get off on the simulated violence itself, having to perform it anyway to satisfy his partner would be pretty repellent.

Furrytoebean · 28/03/2019 15:04

I can't help but feel someone telling me I can't be submissive because I am a woman and that is what is expected of me, is any different from someone telling me I can't or shouldn't do anything else simply because I am a woman*

No ones saying you can't do it.

We're saying it's not free from critique and shouldn't be normalised.

I do loads of things that I know in the long run are harmful to women. I shave my legs, I am married, I do more of my housework because it's easier than breaking down my husbands preconditioning.

My sexuality wasn't created in a vacuum either, I had to really break down what I was aroused by and why.

Feminists aren't big kill joy matrons going around telling women they 'aren't allowed' to do stuff. They are asking you to look at what you are doing, put it into the context of the patriarchy and analysis it that way.
Someone upthread said feminists ignore desire. No we don't. We just understand desire is complicated and is completely linked the existing power structures around us.

Deconstructing this is feminism.

Am I really supposed to believe that all the men wanking over women being tied up, spunked on, and choked on porn hub are thinking 'oh I'm so glad I'm enabling this woman to get through her past sexual abuse trauma, this really is a noble act'.

Of course they aren't.

AIBUtopickanyoldname · 28/03/2019 15:08

am probably not thinking this trough clearly, but I can't help but feel someone telling me I can't be submissive because I am a woman and that is what is expected of me, is any different from someone telling me I can't or shouldn't do anything else simply because I am a woman

I’m not telling you you can or can’t do anything. But I am suggesting that you - and everyone who engages in BDSM - are not being honest about the reasons you do it.

And if people were honest about how trauma response and the eroticisation of male domination are the main drivers of the BDSM scene, it would shift the conversation away from the topic of acceptance and ‘anything goes’, towards one about safeguarding and mitigating the risk of abuse.

At the moment those conversations are being shut down by accusations of ‘kink shaming’. It’s not helpful to women.

WeRiseUp · 28/03/2019 15:12

Yes, I think if anyone with with a submissive kink went to have it analysed they would realise they were acting out trauma or pain they'd been through or even exposure to porn - perhaps even so early on in childhood they don't even make the connection.

agirlhasnonameX · 28/03/2019 15:21

I enjoy BDSM because by nature and through life's circumstances I have very Dominant roles. I find it very freeing, as ironic as that is. For me, BDSM is the only time I do not have to worry, be in control or make decisions.
My Dominant partner cleans our house and cooks our meals. I am in charge of our finances and the majority of important decision making. We are very much equals though.
I haven't ever really questioned whether me being female plays a role in what arouses me, as I am bisexual and enjoy Domme's as much as I do Dominants. I don't feel as though I am submitting to a man, simply because he is a man and I am a woman.

Furrytoebean · 28/03/2019 15:23

I have a close friend who is very into the fetish scene.
He is a gay man and is into pup play and rubber.

One thing I have noticed from him and my time when I was younger and dabbled in the bdsm scene, is how creative it is.

I often wonder if a lot of the reason why fetish is so popular is because play in adults in frowned upon outside he context of sex.

I mean dressing up, playing with character, and just being generally weird.

I don't actually think we need more acceptance of bdsm and fetish, I think we need more acceptance of adults exploring and playing outside of the sexual context.

Furrytoebean · 28/03/2019 15:26

I haven't ever really questioned whether me being female plays a role in what arouses me, as I am bisexual and enjoy Domme's as much as I do Dominants. I don't feel as though I am submitting to a man, simply because he is a man and I am a woman.

Do you think being bisexual has meant you are free from female conditioning?

agirlhasnonameX · 28/03/2019 15:27

@Furrytoebean I tried to say earlier that BDSM wasn't about sex as much as everything else, but I don't think people want to hear that and I'm sure they would consider people who like puppy play to be people who want to fuck dogs.

Furrytoebean · 28/03/2019 15:29

I just think it's sad that society has got to a place where if you want to dress as a dog and play being an animal for a bit, you have to pretend it's for sexual enjoyment and not just because humans actually really like play.

agirlhasnonameX · 28/03/2019 15:31

Do you think being bisexual has meant you are free from female conditioning?
Absolutely not. I meant that I do not feel I have to be submissive to a man because I am a woman, when I am also attracted to Dominant women. I don't think my sex dictates my interests in BDSM. What I do feel though that as a woman and a person, that it is my choice to make.

WeRiseUp · 28/03/2019 15:32

I just think it's sad that society has got to a place where if you want to dress as a dog and play being an animal for a bit, you have to pretend it's for sexual enjoyment and not just because humans actually really like play.

I agree.

But the thing is, because of adult male sex drives, a sexual component will enter into it.

It puts kids at risk - ie- cosplay (kid-friendly) and furries (perverts).

Furrytoebean · 28/03/2019 15:33

But the thing is, because of adult male sex drives, a sexual component will enter into it.

I agree with this but I think it's male sexual entitlement rather than male sex drive.

MsLucyLastic · 28/03/2019 17:36

*Lucy May I ask, genuine question, I’m not well educated on the “scene”. If assault cannot be consented to (which I agree with but the police and law clearly don’t!), they does that mean BDSM never results in injuries?"

@Qsandmore I am appalled that the police said that to you. That is a disgraceful misapplication of the law IMO.

Personally, I am never, ever bruised, no. Because my partners have been careful never to hurt me. There is not a lot of violence involved in being tied to a bed. Or being stroked with different things like feathers and silk. I do like being spanked, but not hard, just enough for a sting rather than pain. Being tied to a chair, blindfolded, with a sex toy against your vulva, unable to move, just feel, is not violent. It is a partner being in control of me, but not violence at all.

I would never, ever agree to what was done to you. I am so very sorry you experienced that. That is not the BDSM that I recognise Flowers

It does seem that many people on this thread arent appreciating that not all BDSM involves violence. I know some have said they don't care what people do as it is "boring", but then misconceptions are being expressed all over the thread.

BDSM is a symbiotic power exchange. The sub craves being able to let go and have someone else in charge of their sexual response. The Dom is turned on by this and craves the submission of the sub. The Dom only has power because the Sub gives it. So in this way, the Dom is also submissive to the Sub. He craves to be allowed to be in charge. As he is only allowed when she says yes, then she is also in charge, and therefore dominating him.

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