‘More acceptance’ of S&M needed

[Imnobody4]

talkradio.co.uk/news/more-acceptance-needed-sm-activities-19032230392
My morning isn't starting well. Haven't heard the programme - not sure I could stand it.

Oh, I forgot to say.....any spanking, caning etc which may occur is agreed in advance. The level of force a person wants is also agreed and constantly checked throughout. Bruising would only occur if the sub wanted to be spanked so hard that bruising was unavoidable. HOWEVER Doms tend to know when the skin is likely to bruise, and stop at the first sign of discoloration. Also, Doms are careful not to break the skin. The Subs safety and wellbeing should always be their first priority.

If a Dom goes beyond what a Sub agrees, then it becomes assault. No question. THAT is why the police response to your attack appalls me.

I can’t see how what you’ve described is in any way different to how I’d describe my husband’s attitude to our own sexual relationship. He would be devastated to hurt me - as I would him - and he gets pleasure from giving me pleasure - as I do him. So what’s different about BDSM? As far as I can see, it’s the acts themselves, which are simulations of violence. I struggle to square the idea that someone could at once be abhorred by the idea of inflicting actual violence on their partner and turned on by their enthusiasm for the idea. There’s a disconnect there. Something doesn’t ring true.

There is lots that is similar to a non BDSM sex life. BDSM, for me, is just shorthand to explain the power dynamic I seek during sex.

The turned on by acts but abhorring violence thing: It does sound very arse over tit, I know.

I suppose, speaking very personally, I like a little bit of pain, because it then makes the pleasurable touch feel even better. The release of endorphins is mind blowing when mixed with sensual touch. The level of pain that each Sub wants to be able to experience these feelings is variable to each person. The Dom is responsible for eliciting these feelings and never, ever going further than that.

So if a Sub wants to be spanked to release the endorphins, the Dom has to closely watch the Sub to make sure that the spanking is satisfying the sub rather than actually just hurting her. Lots of Doms refuse to engage in any form of spanking etc. My partners have not minded spanking to my satisfaction, but all have been repulsed by the idea of actually hurting me. They enjoy giving me pleasure, not actually being violent towards me. As soon as I am not experiencing pleasure, they stop and it is a real passion killer for them.

As he is only allowed when she says yes, then she is also in charge, and therefore dominating him.
This is one of the ways it's easy to spot a Dominant from an abuser. A fake or an abuser will not like language like this, nor understand it. A true BDSM Dominant will agree and already be aware.

*This is exactly how it went down. And when people tried to say hang on this is not a sexuality, it's a fetish, and a huge number of you are just standard straight people, they were able to respond with well it's LGBT now, not LGB, and people made the same arguments about the T so why not us too?

I am waiting in sick anticipation for the day they want to start including it in sex education lessons for school children. The day is coming.*

As someone into BDSM, I would fight like hell to keep it out of schools. It is not a bloody marginalised sexuality. It is a kink that should not be engaged in unless you know what you are dping and truly get what it is about.

This thread shows how it is often conflated automatically with sexual violence, that would be a dangerous thing to teach kids.

*@abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise

MsLucyLastic I don't wish to be too provocative over such a sensitive issue, and will not judge a woman's difficult decision to prosecute her rapist or not, but what you have described is indeed putting your partner's well-being first, in a self-sacrificing manner.*

That is all your opinion. However, as I was actually the person who lived the experience, it would be nice if you respected the truth of my experience. I put MYSELF first. And that meant not exposing my relationship to public and family scrutiny.

I cannot believe I am having to describe something so intensely personal, or that you honestly feel entitled to question my inner motivations. However, as you have, let me explain: If I had exposed mine and my partner's sex life to scrutiny, then I would have struggled to retain the dynamic I had with my partner. If I believed he was being viewed negatively, our dynamic would have changed, which would have affected my own satisfaction with my relationship. Is that ok?

*@Cel982

Lucy (and others), isn't it somewhat naive to accept the narrative that a man's pleasure in BDSM is wholly due to the response of his partner to his actions, and nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of those actions themselves? It would be remarkably unselfish as the basis for a relationship, and you would think that for someone who didn't get off on the simulated violence itself, having to perform it anyway to satisfy his partner would be pretty repellent.*

I have explained that a bit above, but I didnt want to ignore your question. Hope my reply above adds a bit of clarity. It does sound odd when viewed from the outside, I agree.

I am amazed at all the comments on this thread, by women who are not into BDSM, telling those of us who are, WHY we are.

A little bit of respect for each if us having our own reasons would be nice! I am aghast at how motivations have been ascribed to us, without knowing us at all, and despite what we personally say.

Surely feminism is NOT about erasing other women's motivations and replacing them with what you think?

I have never, ever experienced abuse or trauma. I happen to like slight pain (more discomfort really) to release endorphins.

There is arrogance and hypocrisy on this thread. On the one hand it has been stated that choices aren't being judged, then on the other, that we are all experiencing trauma. I would love to know the qualifications of those who feel able to decide this, online, about women they have never met, and who themselves are refuting that they have been through trauma.

I get that some women, being turned on by their male Dom inflicting a bit of pain, seems to tie into patriarchal notions of the roles of men and women. But I can assure you that not all women into BDSM are doing it because of some latent desire to reinforce the patriachy.

I am also bi and enjoy being Dommed. I have also switched roles with partners. Not everything is about patriarchy.

That is all your opinion. Nope, I was just going on what you'd described.
I cannot believe I am having to describe something so intensely personal, or that you honestly feel entitled to question my inner motivations. You didn't have to, and I didn't question your inner motivations, I said:
I don't wish to be too provocative over such a sensitive issue, and will not judge a woman's difficult decision to prosecute her rapist or not, but what you have described is indeed putting your partner's well-being first, in a self-sacrificing manner. I realise it's a very personal issue, but I'm fed up with the constant offence-taking and policing of language on this thread, it's all very emotionally manipulative, and frankly not a way to convince anybody that BDSM is a healthy practice performed by well-adjusted people.

I am aghast at how motivations have been ascribed to us, without knowing us at all, and despite what we personally say.
I haven't directed an analysis to anyone personally once, only asked questions, yet people have taken it upon themselves to take general statements being personally about them, misquote me so they can take offence and act morally superior a number of times. If you disagree with the feminist analysis of BDSM that's fine, we're here to have a conversation, but expect to have your position challenged and disagreed with, without taking it personally. Acting indignant and hard done to because people disagree with you is the height of narcissism.

I'm fed up with the constant offence-taking and policing of language on this thread
If I said Feminism is about hating men and all women who describe themselves as feminists have clearly been victims of childhood abuse (even after they have stated they have not been). They clearly have terrible, unhealthy relationships and all need to see therapists, as they have a psychological dysfunction, would my language not be 'policed'??
How is it ok for someone who doesn't have an accurate understanding of what or why or how BDSM works to say such horrible uneducated things about women and then when it is argued against, told to shut up because some people can say what they like and others can't?

agirlhasnonameX Do you spend much time on the FWR boards? People pop up to say provocative things all the time. People using engage with them with wit and intelligence and it is a joy to behold. I rarely see anyone throwing their toys out of the pram and shouting 'why are you so mean to me?!'
How is it ok for someone who doesn't have an accurate understanding of what or why or how BDSM works to say such horrible uneducated things about women and then when it is argued against, told to shut up because some people can say what they like and others can't?
Firstly, I think most people here are very aware of what BDSM is. I've repeatedly said I don't care what people get up to in private but concerned about how it's come into the mainstream and damaged women who don't want it, but rather than have this engaged with individuals have repeatedly put the focus back on themselves, numerous lengthy spiels about how great BDSM is, stealth brags about the amazing sex lives people have, and 'insights' into what it's really all about, which is nothing we haven't heard before and all quite exhibitionistic tbh.
told to shut up because some people can say what they like and others can't? - I haven't told anyone to shut up, I've given my opinion. It's a forum, anyone can say what they like within the guidelines, so go ahead and emote away if you think that's going to convince anyone of what you're saying.

yet people have taken it upon themselves to take general statements being personally about them, misquote me so they can take offence
I genuinely didn't realise you had said what you did at the beginning of your post, I have a bad habit of reading far too fast, I apologised twice. I also made it clear I wasn't taking offence. I'm sorry if then you misunderstood. And even without the misquote what I said was still relevant to your actual post.

@abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise
I was referring to the posters who have continually said that submissives are victims of childhood trauma, abuse and are psychology damaged. Forgive me if I see nothing witty or intelligent about that. It wasn't aimed at you specifically, but if people are free to say that is the case, I am also free to argue against that, being one of those people described.
If you want to call me stating that it's an unfair assumption to presume someone has trauma because of their private preferences, 'throwing my toys out of the pram' feel free, but it won't discourage me from debating and disagreeing heavily with it....

There is clearly very very little understanding about BDSM. The misconceptions in this thread are enormous.

Or, people just disagree with you. It's odd to assume that all disagreement comes from ignorance. Is it not possible to understand and have a different view?

Of course, but I am being told that everyone like me has been abused in childhood and that I am psychology unsound. I don't disagree with that, I know it to be untrue.
If BDSM is not understood, how can you differentiate it from abuse? And clearly it is not understood, neither does anyone want to understand or talk about it, which for potential victims is very worrying.

I reckon it is worth examining why control issues and punishment are eroticised. Probably worth looking back to one's own parenting. Why does one need to play act powerlessness before having inner permission to get turned on?

@abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise

I realise it's a very personal issue, but I'm fed up with the constant offence-taking and policing of language on this thread, it's all very emotionally manipulative, and frankly not a way to convince anybody that BDSM is a healthy practice performed by well-adjusted people*

Yes, being raped and deciding whether to prosecute or not is a very personal experience. Using personal, emotional language to respond to that is not about being emotionally manipulative. It is about finding it hard to talk about such a traumatic time dispassionately.

You have said people are taking things personally on several occasions now. I think we are all aware that this is a general discussion. However, what some of you are discussing theoretically is what some of us practise personally. So to explain our point of view, we refer to personal experience. If you want to see this as exhibitionist, that is disappointing, especially as I have felt like I have disclosed more than I would normally do, but because I hoped it would facilitate the conversation.

I also cannot see any narcissism on this thread and am unsure why you see it that way.

It is clear that actually, this isn't a subject that people want to discuss from different perspectives. And that understanding isnt actually sought or wanted. People have already made their minds up and simply want to agree with each other. I don't see how that will move the issue forwards. Speaking in an echo chamber hasnt changed anything thus far.

MsLucyLastic I initially said to you please don't talk about it if it is too distressing for you to do so, something I would recommend as a general rule in forums. Nobody has forced you to speak about such personal things or to give examples, you have done that of your own free will, so please don't make out your are my victim. As this is a feminist board and many are concerned with how BDSM practices have negatively impacted women by being exploited by abusive men, you must understand that this is what many are most concerned with, rather than hearing about a celebratory exploration of what BDSM means to you personally, and if you will volunteer personal examples as part of the discussion then they will probably be commented on in some way. Any woman who has been sexually abused has my deepest sympathy.

I reckon it is worth examining why control issues and punishment are eroticised. Probably worth looking back to one's own parenting. Why does one need to play act powerlessness before having inner permission to get turned on?
Please can you explain what leads you to believe a submissive needs to act powerless before having permission to be turned on? BDSM is the only time I am not in control and it is a release and relaxation. I am capable of being turned on by lots of things, not just a power dynamic.
I had a very happy childhood, with parents who split amicably, but whom with I had good relationships after. My mother was and is the most loving, caring person I have ever known and I have a wonderful relationship with her. Both my parents have given me tremendous amounts of support through life. How do you think that led to me being submissive?

Please can you explain what leads you to believe a submissive needs to act powerless before having permission to be turned on?

I think you answered it yourself here:
BDSM is the only time I am not in control

Not in control = powerless.

You talk about needing to be in control in most aspects of your life (I think you said dominant) - obviously this is causing you some sort of unpleasant tension or stress that means you need to erotically play out relinquishing that control for relief.

What's with the control issues?

I would love to know how many more of us on this thread are from a mental health and therapy background.

The pseudo psychoanalytic posturing by some on the thread is quite something. First rule of therapy: you cannot establish someone's feelings or intent without spending considerable time with them.

You also cannot make sweeping generalizations about sexuality and individual facets of it. It is intensely variable and to say "all X = Y" is something only believed by those who are woefully underqualified.

Not everything is based in childhood. We know that now, and lots of Freud has been debunked.

With the exception of hoodathunkit, other attempts to extrapolate motivation to BDSM practices across this thread, read as if some have taken an A level in Psychology or a basic counselling course and are excellent examples of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

I wonder how the latest psychosexual research, which found that those who enjoy a BDSM dynamic enjoy happier sex lives and relationships, fits into the "oppressed by the patriarchy" narrative. The report found that due to the levels of communication, honestly, trust, respect and openness between couples who practised BDSM, they reported higher satisfaction levels than those who didn't engage in such practices. It is googlable I think, I read it in a Journal but can't remember which one.

Violence against women is shit. Non consenting actions are shit. By your own arguments, look at the abusers who take on a BDSM guise and castigate them. Not BDSM as a whole. As a feminist, I firmly believe in a woman's right to choose for herself, and other women judging those choices have no more right to do so than the patriarchy has.

“On the one hand it has been stated that choices aren't being judged, then on the other, that we are all experiencing trauma. “

Many S&M advocates themselves say they engage in S&M, as it helps them to process traumatic abuse, and are publicly saying that it can help others process abuse. If you disagree with this then perhaps you should take it up with the S&M advocates who are pushing that narrative.

“I get that some women, being turned on by their male Dom inflicting a bit of pain, seems to tie into patriarchal notions of the roles of men and women. But I can assure you that not all women into BDSM are doing it because of some latent desire to reinforce the patriachy.”

No one has said women who engage in S&M do it because they ‘desire to reinforce the patriarchy’. I think many women involved in S&M genuinely do not want to believe they are doing that, which is why we hear an endless list of justifications, and the argument from them that it is ‘empowering’, that they are assertive when they are not practicing S&M etc. However, despite not wanting to enforce ‘patriarchal notions of the roles of men and women’ that is what they are doing.

“I am also bi and enjoy being Dommed. I have also switched roles with partners. Not everything is about patriarchy.”

Feminists understand bi and lesbian women (as well as gay men) sometimes practice S&M, it does not invalidate the feminist critique of S&M, we live in a male dominated society that promotes the eroticisation of dominance/sadism and submission/masochism to everyone. No group is immune to internalising those messages. Switching roles is still eroticising those power dynamics, which is why a man who wants to be ‘sissified’ is not ‘brave’, ‘inspiring’, and ‘smashing the patriarchy’ but is just a sexist man with a fetish.

Ahh yes the old, 'if you disagree with me you just don't understand' trope.

I firmly believe in a woman's right to choose for herself

Choose away. Just don't claim just because a woman chooses something it automatically make it a feminist choice and free from critique

@WeRiseUp yes, but when did I say that relinquishing control was necessary for me to be turned on?
If I had to come up with a reason that I am involved BDSM, having somewhere I can be something completely different than regular life allows would be the closest reason I could give. It is escapism, just as getting lost in a book or tv show, or hiking or writing can be. It doesn't mean I have issues with control. I have also said my partner and I are equals in our relationship.

The choosy choice argument is used in an attempt to dismiss feminist critiques of everything from feminine beauty standards to prostitution. It's an argument that completely misses the point.

www.feministcurrent.com/2011/03/11/the-trouble-with-choosing-your-choice/