‘More acceptance’ of S&M needed

[Imnobody4]

talkradio.co.uk/news/more-acceptance-needed-sm-activities-19032230392
My morning isn't starting well. Haven't heard the programme - not sure I could stand it.

I don't wish to be rude, but I'm afraid I still really really really don't care and have no interest in reading about a justification as to why BDSM is entirely natural because women are starved of attention on account of being female as children - which btw, hardly does anything to further the cause, as this is rooted in patriarchy too. People who are into this seem to think that others want to hear all about it and need to be 'educated'. If you get off on BDSM because your mother didn't show you enough affection, that's none of my business. When women are being violently assaulted because BDSM - however the mainstream has interpreted it - is reinforcing ideas that masochism is natural to women, allowing abusive men to use it as an excuse, then something needs to change, and frankly my sympathies lie more with the victims than the rights of people to get off on their kink. Adverts for body spray and chocolate are hardly known for championing feminism either.

I think the point is being missed here. My concern is about the normalisation of violence in a way that allows men to say murder was "rough sex gone wrong" or violent rape was "consensual sex games".

If the Spanner case ruling that you can't consent to ABH/GBH was adhered to for heterosexual couples no one would ever know about the criminally violent activities BDSM practitioners would be carrying out on each other unless the "submissive" was either killed by accident or reported the partner to the police. Which would mean that there was a fundamental lack of trust in the relationship so not "safe, sane and consensual". Struggling to see why anyone has a problem with it, to be honest.

Cross posted

“The fact that power differential is even more eroticised than it was a few decades ago, that it is being packaged and sold to us in media of all genres as the height of eroticism, is patriarchal backlash in action.“

I agree completely. The fact is male dominated society has always advocated that women should enjoy being sexually submissive and masochistic, it is constantly promoted to women in various overt and covert ways, so of course many women will internalise those messages. When a woman engages in masochism/submission, she is conforming to what male dominated society expects and wants of her, there is absolutely nothing new, edgy, or progressive about it. I agree with those who have said it is boringly conformist.

I think those who believe S&M can be ‘loving’ or ‘healthy’ have a skewed view of what a loving and healthy relationship actually is. Being one of those ‘old fashioned’ radical feminist’s, I do not accept the premise that a healthy relationship can involve someone (usually a woman) submitting to or being dominated by another (usually a man), the fact some women consent to S&M does not magically make it loving or healthy.

“Some would posit that this is all to do with the patriarchy, however I think this theory misses the point, which is that the roots of the fantasy lie in infancy and the relationship with the mother.”

This is just Freudian psychobabble, that queer theorist’s in the social sciences like to recycle because it suites their agenda, and enables them to reject the feminist analysis of S&M.

“The most important issue, at least in my opinion, is that we are able to think playfully, creatively and respectfully about unconscious desires. It is centrally important because if we do not collectively raise our consciousness about our unconscious desires they will be used against us to oppress and control us. In fact this is already happening to a terrifying degree.”

We should “raise consciousness about our collective desires”. However, the feminist aim is to raise consciousness about where these desires come from, and how they are part of the system of male domination that keep females oppressed. It is not a feminist aim to raise consciousness of these desires in order for women to discover their inner submissive or masochist, or to enable submissive/masochistic fantasies to be enacted in ‘safer ways’ and to become more accepted, that would be the queer theorist/sexual liberationist aim.

The fact is more and more sexual acts involving submission/masochism are being promoted to women as normal and healthy, this is having a detrimental impact on women as a group (particularly young women). Ignoring who benefits by S&M being promoted to women, and claiming it is a preference that can be part of a loving, healthy relationship, harms women as a group. That is the bottom line.

Eresh well said

abuseofpower I have a very happy relationship with my mother and was smothered by love as a child. I don't understand how anyone can say they care about these issues at the same time as they say they have no interest in being informed about what those issues actually involve. If there was more understanding particularly in court, men would not get away with hiding under BDSM as an excuse for their crimes.
submitting to or being dominated by another (usually a man), the fact some women consent to S&M does not magically make it loving or healthy.
No, but the openness, honesty, trust, care, support, communication, understanding and respect on a monumental level does.
Most often submissives are people in high power jobs or roles, who have big and stressful decisions to make and who use BDSM as a release from pressures of their otherwise very Dominant roles in life.
People who use BDSM as a form of self harm, because they have been abused or because of mental health issues are not considered to fall into the sane category.

Lucy you said you made fetish porn. So yes I believe it did contribute. You aren’t just doing it behind closed doors are you?

@Qsandmore no I didn't. And I find that fucking offensive to be honest. I have actually said that I don't like violent porn. Or any porn particularly.

To whichever pp who asked why I didnt report my rape: I was in a non-standard relationship at the time. If I had gone to court, my partner's family would have found out. As they were very religious, this woupd have caused problems. My partner wanted me to prosecute. I decided that my partner's privacy and family relationships were more important to me than prosecuting the inadequate that raped me.

I did make a statement though, so that if anyone else reports the man for rape, the police have my statement and could ask me to be a witness. Which I would do.

Also apart from the shit show of 50 shades and porn I'm not really sure what it is people are being exposed to, or in which ways BDSM has become mainstream.

Well here's a fun example for you. Where I live, the main gay and lesbian rights organisation now includes 'BDSM' as a minority sexuality and sadists reckon they should be able to identify publicly as sadists with no shame or judgement. Just casually mention it at work or something. They want it treated the same way we treat homosexuality.

@abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise - sorry, I couldn't remember who had asked me re the rape. I have answered above.

agirlhasnonameX My comment on being starved of attention by the mother was in response to hoodathunkit who as using this as justification of BDSM as being entirely natural to women and nothing to do with patriarchy. I never claimed to know your personal situation, the comment was not directed at you personally.
If there was more understanding particularly in court, men would not get away with hiding under BDSM as an excuse for their crimes.
True, but understanding also means a feminist critique of BDSM practices and the way it entering the public consciousness is damaging to women.

MsLucy I’ve looked back and it was JulieTee that stated they have done fetish porn and seem perfectly happy with it. I retract that on your name and you have my sincere apologies.

While I want to read the thread and understand the points of view I am finding it difficult obviously as my experience is fresh so clearly misread the poster.

@MagicMix I don't share the view that it's the same as being gay, I see why some might but that doesn't speak for a whole community.
It would be nice to not be told I'm mentally unwell, perverted, a victim, disgusting and it would be nice not to hear that the man I love is an abuser and rapist, but since I don't often talk about my preferences, it doesn't impact massively on me.

way it entering the public consciousness is damaging to women.
I have never said anything to the contrary. This is why I think understanding needs to happen if it cannot be shoved back under the carpet.

What I find horrible is the men who fantasise about being a rapist. They are men I would run a million miles from.

I totally agree. I also run a mile from men who get turned on by women wearing schoolgirl outfits, as on some level the men are imagining sex with someone underage.

I'd like to know what percentage of serious masochists and submissives grew up with abuse. I'm betting it's close to 100%.

I think lots of subs have. Lots use BDSM to gain mastery over their past abuse. By replaying it but being able to stop it, they become in control of it. Then others react sexually to submission, because they have been abused so often that it has become their norm. Which is absolutely heartbreaking.

Personally, I have never experienced abuse until I was raped in adulthood. But I was into BDSM before that.

For me, I am very much a capable, strong, educated woman who people look to, to take charge in day to day life. Constantly. So for me to have one place where I can completely give up control, to a trusted partner, feels like bliss. My partners haven't got off on hurting me, they would have been gutted if they had hurt me, but they have got off on seeing my pleasure which they are totally responsible for. That is what has turned my Doms on. (Jeez, I will be name changing after this 😀).

They have known beforehand exactly what they may and may not do to me. I don't see my wanting my partner to take charge in the bedroom as being against my feminist principles.

I can withdraw my consent at any time for any reason and he has to stop, same as in a non BDSM relationship. If the man then carries on, it is rape, same as a non BDSM relationship.

MsLucyLastic "I decided that my partner's privacy and family relationships were more important to me than prosecuting" - I'm sorry you felt you had to put your partner before yourself in this way and didn't get the justice you deserve.

I don't wish to be rude, but I'm afraid I still really really really don't care and have no interest in reading about a justification as to why BDSM is entirely natural because women are starved of attention on account of being female as children - which btw, hardly does anything to further the cause, as this is rooted in patriarchy too.

I was not positing that BDSM is "entirely natural", simply that the causal factors in people's sexual fantasies are multi-faceted and rooted in all kinds of experiences, including preverbal infant experiences. I am not trying to further any kind of cause other than to invite people to stay thinking.

When women are being violently assaulted because BDSM - however the mainstream has interpreted it - is reinforcing ideas that masochism is natural to women, allowing abusive men to use it as an excuse, then something needs to change, and frankly my sympathies lie more with the victims than the rights of people to get off on their kink.

I am unconvinced that the hypothesis BDSM = women being assaulted is valid.

I do not doubt that some women in BDSM relationships are abused and assaulted, even murdered. Women who are in non-BDSM relationships are also abused, assaulted and murdered.

The abuse and murder of women is a terrible thing and only a psychopath would think otherwise.

I remember watching a documentary titled I think "50 Shades of Abuse", it might have been one of the 24 Hours in Police Custody series, or similar.

In that documentary a vulnerable young woman was being abused and exploited by an absolutely disgusting sexual predator, all in the guise of "rough sex".

Even though this man had abused and injured this vulnerable young woman the police claimed that they were unable to take action against him,, and my memory may be incorrect, but I think it was because she repeatedly returned to him, apparently of her own free will.

To me it was appalling that this young woman had been denied justice and the predator who exploited her got off completely.

To say that this woman was failed because of BDSM is simply untrue. The woman was failed and the predator unpunished because of a complete lack of awareness on the part of the police about Stockholm Syndrome, depth psychology and how BDSM relationships are meant to function.

The police are not magic. They are only able to take action when they have a mandate to do so. The bureaucratic restrictions on their ability to take action relate to statutory law and to whatever CPD training they have received and both are in need of a complete overhaul.

This is just Freudian psychobabble, that queer theorist’s in the social sciences like to recycle because it suites their agenda, and enables them to reject the feminist analysis of S&M.

Actually most of my understanding of this, although I did study Freud at one point, is from the work of the analyst Melanie Klein and the object relations school, although I am also interested in the work of Lacan (I struggle with Lacanian theory but find it interesting).

I have not studied queer theory at all so cannot comment on it.

Is there an agreed feminist analysis of S&M? I do not believe that there is.

There is certainly a radical feminist analysis. What concerns me about the radical feminist discourse regarding this issue is that it does not engage with thinking about desire. Everything is simply causally attributed to the patriarchy and there is a strong element of confirmation bias and, it certainly feels like this to me, of the policing of debate and of thought.

One of the main issues I have with TRAs is the policing of language and of narratives and I aways distrust any invitation to attribute the factors for any phenomena to simplistic causes.

While it can feel very reassuring and comfortable to live in a world where good and evil are clearly identifiable and where one feels a sense of absolute certainty about ones convictions reality just does not work like like that.

I am not claiming to be right or to have all the answers. I think that the ability to regard even the most cherished theories as provisional is an important element of the capacity to think creatively about any subject.

The demands of real life beckon but maybe later.

am extremely concerned about some BDSM activist groups as I know that at least some of them (I cannot pretend to know about all of them) have links to extremely nasty cults involved in blackmail, trafficking and the abuse of vulnerable adults (and in some instances children).

Oh my God. That is dreadful. I hadnt heard about that, but then I am not really a member of the community anymore.

If the Spanner case ruling that you can't consent to ABH/GBH was adhered to for heterosexual couples no one would ever know about the criminally violent activities BDSM practitioners would be carrying out on each other unless the "submissive" was either killed by accident or reported the partner to the police

Absolutely. BDSM should never, ever be used as any kind of a defence for sex crimes. There needs to be more stringent enforcement of the law, and those protesting the law as it stands, need to shut up. The law shouldn't change to accommodate minority kinks, which can then be exploited by abusers to walk free. No way.

Hood my letter from the police saying why they won’t prosecute states specifically that the level of violence you can consent to in law is now lower due to challenges from the BDSM community. Yes BDSM = an increase in an abuse of women and more specifically getting away with it.

That’s not me saying all BDSM is abuse, I’m not into it so wouldn’t know! But the prevelance and normalising of it is increasing the number of men who want to use dominance in sex, probably via porn, maybe by “allowing” an innate longing that was always there.

When OLD I would say 60% of the men on there went into conversations of them being in control, spanking, Mr Grey 🙄. I have almost convinced myself it’s somethinf about me as a strong woman that is like a magnet, rather than believe “most” men like this shit.

The one who raped me with a psychopath.

My partners haven't got off on hurting me, they would have been gutted if they had hurt me, but they have got off on seeing my pleasure which they are totally responsible for. That is what has turned my Doms on.
This is exactly how all the Dominants I have had work too. To hurt me would be completely devastating to them and they would see it as a huge failure on their role.
Consent I find is so much more focused on in a BDSM relationship than any other. Not just for pain or bondage, but for vanilla sex and more common sexual acts altogether. I have never had a sexual BDSM experience that wasn't discussed and agreed apon at some earlier point. There have never been any grey areas, which I have found in vanilla relationships.

Oh my God. That is dreadful. I hadnt heard about that, but then I am not really a member of the community anymore.

just quickly

This is what I find concerning about this discussion

I think we all want to protect vulnerable people.

It seems to me that you and the posters who have been quite brave in talking about extremely personal issues have been treated with hostility when there are plenty of people who are more suitable targets for the rage that some posters here feel.

Women who are committed to protecting the vulnerable and who have insights into the worlds / subcultures associated with BDSM can be a source of important intelligence

Much of the intel I have acquired via all kinds of dangerous subcultures has acquired from people in the liminal states on the borders of such subcultures

Sometimes people know things but do not know the importance or value of what they know. This is certainly true for me regrinding experiences I had when I was trafficked but did not understand at the time

Have to go now, but I really hope and wish that we can pull together and make a difference and stop the abuse of the vulnerable. Maybe this is a wish too far, but I can dream

Qsandmore

sorry about the brief post but am now very late

I am so very sorry about your experience

It sounds absolutely horrific and I can only imagine your suffering

It seems to me that you and the posters who have been quite brave in talking about extremely personal issues have been treated with hostility when there are plenty of people who are more suitable targets for the rage that some posters here feel.
I don't see that critiquing BDSM is hostility, and I find the attitude of policing women in their discussion and telling them to 'be nice' inappropriate on a FWR board. You might notice that some of the people here critiquing these practices have also been quite brave in talking about their experiences of rape, abuse, assault and domestic violence, which have been gotten away with because of the way BDSM practices have entered the mainstream.

@Qsandmore Thank you