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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

‘More acceptance’ of S&M needed

999 replies

Imnobody4 · 25/03/2019 10:05

talkradio.co.uk/news/more-acceptance-needed-sm-activities-19032230392
My morning isn't starting well. Haven't heard the programme - not sure I could stand it.

OP posts:
abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise · 27/03/2019 19:56

they think it makes them so much more interesting or sexy if they twat you around the face rather than actually have any sexual skills. - just describing men I've had sexual encounters with. I also said these were BDSM type practices not BDSM, but you failed to quote that bit.

BettyDuMonde · 27/03/2019 20:07

The last time I paid any attention to what the ‘community’ was up to, the latest thing was ‘Ultraviolence’ Hmm

I see informedconsent.co.uk no longer exists (the domain just redirects to fetlife) but I found this definition elsewhere:

thegoddessnyxx.com/bdsm-terms/ultraviolence

agirlhasnonameX · 27/03/2019 20:10

Apologies @abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise I've just read the quoted post again and can't see where you said that was a BDSM practice and not BDSM.
My whole point in mentioning it was that it's the very view that some men have, that it's ok to hurt women because you have a kink, that you can find a submissive partner and you can throw them about and do what you like to them because they will enjoy it. If instead there was a focus on the complexities, effort, patience, understanding and work that goes into these types of relationships rather than the physicality's, perhaps it wouldn't look so appealing to wider society.

abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise · 27/03/2019 20:15

BDSM type practices are incredibly dull to me and some men seem to be using them as a substitute for a personality, because they think it makes them so much more interesting or sexy if they twat you around the face rather than actually have any sexual skills.

agirlhasnonameX · 27/03/2019 20:21

Haha my apologies again, I am clearly not functioning today I don't know how I missed that Grin
I still think the language is unhealthy but context does matter.

abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise · 27/03/2019 20:34

This is clearly where we have different priorities. You think the language I've used to describe a man violently assaulting me is 'unhealthy', whilst I personally prefer to focus on a man violently assaulting me during sex as the 'unhealthy' part. I'll use whatever language I like to describe violence against me and find it astonishing you would focus on this with the implication I'm 'kink-shaming' rather than the violence itself.

Qsandmore · 27/03/2019 20:42

Lucy you said you made fetish porn. So yes I believe it did contribute. You aren’t just doing it behind closed doors are you?

abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise · 27/03/2019 21:18

The pp who thinks all BDSM is boring is making me confused I would never say that vanilla sex is boring. I'm a DV survivor, I grew up for the first 18 years of my life with a violent father. I felt trapped and in fear of violence every day for 18 years. Some people with such trauma do BDSM. I don't, it fills me with a mixture of both fear and yes, boredom, because living with being dominated in that sense was repetitive misery day in, day out. I'm bored because BDSM is alluded to everywhere and I have no interest in it. On some level yes, I am offended by it too, for the way it normalises violence against women - you may not personally want that to happen, but it does happen, nonetheless.

Not sure why you presume the antonym of 'BDSM' is 'vanilla'? The missionary position isn't the only alternative, there are plenty of other options to make things interesting.

MagicMix · 27/03/2019 21:59

The missionary position isn't the only alternative, there are plenty of other options to make things interesting.

I think by 'vanilla' they usually mean normal sex where the people involved are kind and respectful to each other and nobody is 'pretending' to be a rapist, abuser or slave-owner. Not necessarily missionary per se.

But anyway, although I understand that it wouldn't do it for everyone, I don't personally find missionary sex boring and I can't work out why it's been singled out as the rubbish position for people who are rubbish at sex. Of course it might be boring to watch, and I suspect that's what people really mean when they call other people's sexual practices 'boring' or 'unimaginative' or 'prudish'. Porn culture means a lot of people treat sex as a sort of performance these days.

MagicMix · 27/03/2019 22:19

Furrytoebean Couldn't agree more, thank you for putting it so clearly.

As long as the consenting adults keep it to themselves and don't report one another, of course they can crack on, who could stop them? But this shit needs to stay in the closet. It definitely doesn't need more acceptance. It's already far too mainstream as it is.

And why is it always the masochists who turn up to defend this when it's always the sadists that people have a problem with? It's like any discussion of the sex trade - there's always this desperate need with the defenders to keep the conversation strictly on the prostituted women, when the people feminists have a problem with are the johns. Never discuss the johns. Never discuss the sadists.

FermatsTheorem · 27/03/2019 22:27

there's always this desperate need with the defenders to keep the conversation strictly on the prostituted women, when the people feminists have a problem with are the johns. Never discuss the johns. Never discuss the sadists.

This, very much so.

I've said this before in connection with rape fantasies. I can understand on an intellectual level the reasons why women have fantasies about "being raped" (scare quotes because often the fantasy is actually about being overwhelmed by uncontrollable passion - though I have talked to women who have said their fantasy genuinely is about real rape). There are various reasons (metaphor for overwhelming passion, processing past abuse but taking control of the narrative, a kind of Stockholm syndrome in a society where rape is ubiquitous, where you can't escape your abuse so recast it as erotic) why women have these fantasies.

What I find horrible is the men who fantasise about being a rapist. They are men I would run a million miles from.

And interestingly, on the rare occasions I've raised this fundamental asymmetry in mixed company, the men who're into this sort of thing will not accept that it is a fundamental asymmetry.

I think it was LangCleg (in connection with a different topic, but equally aposite here) who said "It's about power. You have to keep bringing it back to the power relations and especially the power imbalances." That's what the perpetrators don't want you seeing.

They certainly don't want you seeing the way in which violent porn creates and excuses real abuse against women, and the power imbalances (men behind the camera, men safely in front of the screen, woman in front of the camera needing sutures in her anal sphincter between takes, woman behind the screen, dehumanised).

endchauvinism · 28/03/2019 00:22

I'd like to know what percentage of serious masochists and submissives grew up with abuse. I'm betting it's close to 100%.

Ereshkigal · 28/03/2019 01:45

A sadist involved in kink does not only achieve pleasure from giving pain, but from the masochists pleasure in receiving it.

Do you understand what "sadist" means? They might be playacting with you and feel it's all about your consent and pleasure. That's not sadism. It's

Ereshkigal · 28/03/2019 02:08

Police using BDSM as a means to avoid prosecution is a travesty.

Yes it is. And it could be avoided by adhering to the Spanner Case ruling that you cant consent to bodily harm. You can do what you like as the "submissive" but the onus is on your "dominant" partner not to hurt you. So if your partner kills you by mistake or design he/she won't get away with it. BDSM is currently providing a justification for men to get away with rape and murder. So for some assaults it needs to be considered that it's not possible to consent. Don't you think?

agirlhasnonameX · 28/03/2019 07:37

@abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise Perhaps my posts haven't been very clear, I'm not talking about 'kink shaming,' more that the idea that BDSM is all about violence isn't helpful in educating people so that they, particularly men don't get drawn to it for the wrong reasons. When you wrote your post it didn't seem like it was from your own personal experience, which of course you should be able to word and describe however you choose. And I am sorry that you have had such an awful time, I do not represent, defend or condone any such behaviour.
Perhaps I'm missing some key points of this thread, most Doms I've encountered where not all that sadistic and focused more on sensation that pain. My partner doesn't 'get off' on violence either, or on simulating rape and I very much hold the reins, as it should be. Neither have I ever met a sadist who does enjoy inflicting pain for sexual gratification and with anyone decent it is always a two way street, with the submissive partners desires placed first.
Also apart from the shit show of 50 shades and porn I'm not really sure what it is people are being exposed to, or in which ways BDSM has become mainstream. I don't use Social Media, but I can only assume people are posting indecent or violent images online and if so, I do not understand why this is permitted.
BDSM should not play a factor in any conviction. This protects all women, not just those in 'vanilla' relationships.

agirlhasnonameX · 28/03/2019 07:43

I'd like to know what percentage of serious masochists and submissives grew up with abuse. I'm betting it's close to 100%.
Obviously this is in no way an accurate measure but in the past I knew quite a few subs and have only encountered one with a history of early abuse. Very few with a history of self harm.
I myself am both submissive and a masochist, I have been a victim of DV and rape, but after I became involved in BDSM and in a vanilla relationship.

Echobelly · 28/03/2019 08:26

@endchauvanism - I think that's rather simplistic. IME , quite a lot of people into BDSM have had easy and happy lives, so for them it's a way to explore more extreme and ambiguous feelings and situations.

Ereshkigal · 28/03/2019 08:48

My partner doesn't 'get off' on violence either, or on simulating rape and I very much hold the reins, as it should be.

Then they are unlikely to "accidentally" kill you, so there isn't a problem. The problem is with the normalisation of violence.

KatvonfeelzlikeaMAN · 28/03/2019 08:51

I was interested to see a BDSM sub male getting very angry a post of his "partner " leading another man on a lead around a city centre was shared to a public Facebook group (faces obscured)

Obviously in a public space anyone can take a photo of you. But this man said it was "discrimination".
I found it interesting how he was trying to shift the boundaries of public opinion. A discriminated minority. Needing protection from people raising an eyebrow at their attention seeking behaviour.
Nah mate, you're getting your sexy time kicks out of your fetish. The humiliation in public is part of the thrill.

Kink shaming is bullshit. Keep it in your dungeons / bedrooms. If you're doing something for sexual kicks in public you need to take a long hard look at yourself. That includes AGP too.

Ereshkigal · 28/03/2019 08:57

Yes, I don't want to be a prop in anyone's fetish, thanks. Keep it at home.

hoodathunkit · 28/03/2019 09:51

I've said this before in connection with rape fantasies. I can understand on an intellectual level the reasons why women have fantasies about "being raped" (scare quotes because often the fantasy is actually about being overwhelmed by uncontrollable passion - though I have talked to women who have said their fantasy genuinely is about real rape). There are various reasons (metaphor for overwhelming passion, processing past abuse but taking control of the narrative, a kind of Stockholm syndrome in a society where rape is ubiquitous, where you can't escape your abuse so recast it as erotic) why women have these fantasies.

My understanding of the nature of rape fantasies, which as I sure you know are extremely common and do not of course indicate a desire to be raped, includes the following thoughts;

Re a strong desire to be ravished, enjoyed, overwhelmed. This desire can be misinterpreted as masochism but it does not necessarily have anything to do with masochism at all.

This fantasy can, at one level, be about wishing to be in control, in possession of all one needs and, and this is very important, not feeling needy / not needing to own desire. Feeling desire makes one vulnerable. Experiencing desire for an “other” makes one feel incomplete, lacking.

If you examine advertisements for chocolates and biscuits that are targeted primarily at women, this fantasy can be seen very clearly. All advertisements use deeply unconscious desires (usually sexual desires) to sell us stuff we don’t need. This is the nature of advertising and of capitalism. The reason that chocolate advertisements are of special interest is that the products are harmful to health and do not have much in the way of redeeming features, other than they give pleasure to the consumer. The usual use of unconscious sexual imagery therefore tends to be much more overt and noticeable than for healthy / useful products.

For example, in this advertisement a woman takes sensual enjoyment in eating chocolate while ignoring the phone calls from a would be suitor. The desire in the advertisement is placed in the male actor. He wants her. He is waiting in a car, puzzled as to why she does not answer the phone. He appears frustrated. The female does not need to experience desire, she is in possession of a phallic shaped chocolate bar which she enjoys in an overtly sensuous manner. A puma called “Happiness” slides from beneath her bed and strums languorously on a guitar (an instrument possessing both male and female elements). The advertisement depicts a female in possession of both phallic and vulval symbols, enjoying herself in an overtly sensual manner and not needing to feel needy or desire. The male feels desire and is locked out of the female’s experience of pleasure.

This relates to the fantasy of being raped / ravished as in the fantasy desire is located in the man (the “other”) and the female is the subject of overwhelming desire without needing to feel needy or fear rejection. The fantasy is thus narcissistically gratifying (he desires me because I am irresistible) and also feels empowering because it is the male who is out of control and needy, not the female. I make no claims as to whether the fantasy is empowering or not, just that it feels empowering to the woman fantasising.

You can see the same wish of being irresistibly desirable in the narrative of these ads for Impulse body spray

Some would posit that this is all to do with the patriarchy, however I think this theory misses the point, which is that the roots of the fantasy lie in infancy and the relationship with the mother.

Infant observation studies have shown that mothers provide more care and attention to their infants sons than to their infant daughters. Some psychologists have suggested that this is why females tend to crave commitment and to be desired / enjoyed and while males tend to want to be free and do their own thing. The hypothesis is that women are always seeking the care that they did not receive from their mothers and that males tend to get enough of this and instead seek to be free. I am not claiming that this is true for all men and women all of the time (and it may be that studies on infant observation have changed since I undertook my training) but I think it is an interesting hypothesis. It would certainly seem to be validated by chocolate adverts, consider the averts for Yorkie chocolate bar, a chocolate bar targeted at a male demographic.

The Yorkie consumer is not concerned about being desired or owning desire, he just wants to be free and hit the road to do his thing.

This Yorkie ad is interesting given current events

Anyway, the point I want to make is that there are probably as many causal factors in people’s sexual lives and fantasies as there are fish in the sea.

The patriarchy cannot help but influence our lives in all aspects and it is important to acknowledge that, however, when it comes to sexual fantasies and what arouses people there are many factors at play and pre-verbal, infant fantasies and wishes play a large part. I think that analysing everything in terms of early, primitive fantasies is not “the answer” neither is claiming that everything is due to the patriarchy.

The most important issue, at least in my opinion, is that we are able to think playfully, creatively and respectfully about unconscious desires. It is centrally important because if we do not collectively raise our consciousness about our unconscious desires they will be used against us to oppress and control us. In fact this is already happening to a terrifying degree.

agirlhasnonameX · 28/03/2019 09:57

Then they are unlikely to "accidentally" kill you, so there isn't a problem. The problem is with the normalisation of violence.
As is the case in any sane relationship where all angles have been heavily contemplated by both parties. There are ways to practice safe play, even bondage can be extremely dangerous when the correct research hasn't been done, which is why safety should be the focus if there is to be any focus on it at all and "whips and chains" should not be the focal point.
Public play even in the BDSM community is a very taboo subject, it is completely unnecessary.

hoodathunkit · 28/03/2019 10:07

I also think there are some misunderstandings here about the "normalisation of violence".

If people in a loving, respectful relationship decide to experiment with power play / BDSM this is only really violence in the same way that training boxing or martial arts is violence.

It may appear to be violent to the outside observer, but actually the difference between BDSM and boxing / MA training and real violence is that one is playful, consensual and between good friends (and this is the important bit) with the aim of having a good time and (with MA/boxing) gaining skills) whereas actual sadism (as defined in depth psychology) is acted out with the aim of making a person feel bad inside.

You do not need to hit someone to make them feel bad, real sadists will use words, silences, all manner of things to make another person feel horrible. Sadism can be expressed in a passive aggressive way, via excessive politeness, withdrawal of energy, proclamations of disinterest.

Also, very often sadists are quite unconscious about their motivations. Very often they believe they are being virtuous and superior, however the sadism in their narratives is fairly obvious as their narratives are aimed at making a person feel destroyed inside.

agirlhasnonameX · 28/03/2019 10:12

If people in a loving, respectful relationship decide to experiment with power play / BDSM this is only really violence in the same way that training boxing or martial arts is violence.
This is a very accurate analogy. It may look like violence but it certainly does not feel like it.

hoodathunkit · 28/03/2019 10:30

I am extremely concerned about some BDSM activist groups as I know that at least some of them (I cannot pretend to know about all of them) have links to extremely nasty cults involved in blackmail, trafficking and the abuse of vulnerable adults (and in some instances children).

I feel it is important to try to behave respectfully towards people with alternative lifestyles, providing everything is consensual and only adults are involved. Not least because, if one wants to identify the predators and people who pose a significant danger to vulnerable persons it is very difficult to do unless you have some inside perspective on how things work. Looking in from the outside will not provide concerned activists with sufficient data re the nuances of the situation.

I think that, for anyone who cares about protecting vulnerable people from exploitation, it is essential to at least listen in an open minded manner to people who have some personal experience of these issues.

Obviously some people will lie. Obviously some people are brainwashed (as they are in many other arenas), but if one does not allow room to think creatively and respectfully about these complex, sensitive issues then we might as well just surrender to the bleak future that awaits us if we do nothing and avoid thinking.

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