‘More acceptance’ of S&M needed

[Imnobody4]

talkradio.co.uk/news/more-acceptance-needed-sm-activities-19032230392
My morning isn't starting well. Haven't heard the programme - not sure I could stand it.

I dont know anyone who uses the term vanilla with distain. It is shorthand for mainstream sexual practices. If someone called a person "a vanilla" rather than sexual acts, that would be awful.

The term vanilla isn't at all a slight, in my opinion saying 'normal' instead wouldn't be appropriate. It's simply a term to differentiate between types of relationships

Surely seeing those into BDSM as being exhibitionists is a bit self selecting? Not everyone who is into BDSM is an exhibitionist who would put details on Instagram. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that there must be loads on people into BDSM who aren't exhibitionists, but by default you won't see anything from them online?
As I think I've already made very clear, a few times now, I'm not concerned with what consenting adults do behind closed doors so much as the way this has infiltrated the public consciousness/fashion and, along with opportunism, created a 'grey area' around violent sexual abuse as a result, both in individual sex lives and in the eyes of the law. It's not self-selecting, BDSM is everywhere. You seem very intent to see me as blaming you personally, which I have no interest in, I'm merely describing what I keep seeing.

Tbh, as a sometime BDSM participant myself I think it has much mainstream acceptance as it needs. Too often it's misinterpreted as about a dominant person doing things to someone whether they want it or not, a result of psychological 'damage' etc, and like all things it's cheapened and coarsened by its representation in porn. Frankly it's better staying underground and practised by people who understand and enact consent and boundaries.

Frankly it's better staying underground and practised by people who understand and enact consent and boundaries.
I agree completely with this, but as it's now unavoidable, the correct kind of information should be available and like a pp said, violent porn should be illegal as it does not represent BDSM.

and, along with opportunism, created a 'grey area' around violent sexual abuse as a result, both in individual sex lives and in the eyes of the law

Then more education is needed re issues of consent and abuse. To be 100% honest with you, the people I learned this from the best were Doms. I don't say that to be goady, just as the truth.

It sounds as if some people are hitching onto BDSM as a fashion thing, without fully appreciating what it is. I am not sure how that is the fault of the original community.

I would hazard a guess at EL James' dross books and shaky concept of consent not helping the situation! Lots of people into BDSM are livid at her for glamorising rape and abuse. Could this not be where the fashion has come from, rather than BDSM itself? Bit of a coincidence timing wise.

And I haven't taken anything written as a personal attack. Honestly. I just see lots of people blaming BDSM as a whole for aspects of it that are a) total anathema to BDSM practitioners, b) to do with porn, c) due to dangerous misrepresentation in the mainstream and d) due to poor enforcement of the law.

Frankly it's better staying underground and practised by people who understand and enact consent and boundaries.

I also agree. Bloody 50 Shades......

Choice isn’t made in a vacuum, and BDSM is no longer the sole preserve of the BDSM ‘community’.

There is nothing safe or sane about shoving a spray bottle of bleach up a woman’s vagina, but apparently, if she is dead and unable to give evidence, a judge may well decide it was consensual.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woman-killed-millionaire-sex-game-13600748

I have known, as acquaintances, 2 gay men who accidentally killed their partners during sex games that went wrong. In both instances strangulation was involved as were drugs. In both instances I knew the men sufficiently well to know that they were passionately in love with their partners and that they were in committed LTRs in which what I considered to be extreme BDSM played a part.

On both occasions the men were initially charged with murder, I think later reduced to manslaughter. They were work acquaintances and I lost touch with them prior to finding out what happened conviction wise. I only knew one of these guys well enough to talk about sex, relationships and stuff and he was good friends with the other guy, which is how I got to hear about what had happened.

Both men lost the person they loved, both lost their homes and both ended losing their jobs in the aftermath of these events.

It does sometimes happen that people die during sex due to accidents or cardiac arrest. The risk of accidental death during sex is higher from extreme BDSM is higher. The risk is higher still when drugs and / or alcohol is involved.

I looked at the story in the link above, but it had insufficient information for me to understand what might have happened.

I checked out the court transcripts and discovered details that were truly horrific. Placing the spray nozzle of a bottle of carpet cleaner into any woman's vagina is obviously dangerous and is not something that any sane person would do to someone they cared about.

It is unsurprising that it cased serious injury to this poor woman and I am appalled that the sentence was for manslaughter and not for murder.

I think that the conviction demonstrated a complete lack of understanding about BDSM.

Of course there are abuses. No sane person would deny that. The judge should have been made aware that within BDSM communities (I say this are there are multiple communities and not just one big community) the reputation of the D in BDSM is completely dependent on their ability to please their partner safely without seriously injuring or killing them.

The reason I mention this is because if there had been input to the trial from people who understand how BDSM actually works (or at least is supposed to work) I believe the conviction would have not been for manslaughter, it would have been for what it actually was, which is murder.

As I think I've already made very clear, a few times now, I'm not concerned with what consenting adults do behind closed doors so much as the way this has infiltrated the public consciousness/fashion and, along with opportunism, created a 'grey area' around violent sexual abuse as a result, both in individual sex lives and in the eyes of the law. It's not self-selecting, BDSM is everywhere. You seem very intent to see me as blaming you personally, which I have no interest in, I'm merely describing what I keep seeing.

I think you have a valid point here but I think it is not just BDSM that has infiltrated the mainstream it is that everything has become hyper-sexualised and hyperreal.

Once upon a time people masturbated with their fingers or maybe improvised with fruit, veg or household items.

Nowadays most adults have a drawer full of sex toys. I don't have a problem with the toys, however I think that sex and sexuality generally have been appropriated into consumerist frenzy where 5, 6, 10 however many sex toys are never enough.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily a luddite where sex toys are concerned and people can buy whatever they want but I can't help but feel that our sexuality is being packaged and sold back to us at a great cost.

Then more education is needed re issues of consent and abuse.
Yes, but not only this, the right to say I'm not interested because BDSM is boring AF. Speaking personally, good sex is about variety, BDSM type practices are incredibly dull to me and some men seem to be using them as a substitute for a personality, because they think it makes them so much more interesting or sexy if they twat you around the face rather than actually have any sexual skills. That this has become what sex is now is no doubt a result of a lot of things - porn, 50 shades, queer ideology - but also a lack of imagination of men who either think all women like all the same things all the time, or else don't think about what women like at all and just get off on being violent. At best BDSM bores me to tears when it comes up in conversation - a bit like football - at worst it is used as an excuse for assaulting me. I'm sick to death of it, tbh.

I can sympathise with the view that the BDSM community is essentially ethical. However it remains that a member of that community is asking for the law to be relaxed. They specifically suggest that it is now mainstream.
Mr Cohen said: “The ruling set the threshold for injury you can consent to as extremely low.
“The fact is you see a lot of S&M imagery in public and it’s much more accepted these days. In a sense the general mood of the public is way ahead of the law.”*
Being mainstream means there are no careful control or ethical stance. It is now in the wild. Mr. Cohen is not warning of the dangers to people who aren't members of the community. He's not saying don't try this at home. Isn't this totally irresponsible and will the BDSM community denounce this.

@abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise it's the misconception of BDSM being about getting "slapped round the face" that's part of the issue surely. That and the fact that sex is a very small part of it.
Dominants are regular people, who have regular jobs and hobby's, they don't define themselves by what they are in their private relationships.

agirlhasnonameX I'm neither interested in 'the real' BDSM or in the shitty things men are doing to women in the name of it. I just don't give a fuck about any of it at all, I don't care if your average dom is Paul who works in accounts and is always nice to his mum. That doms are regular people makes it even more boring to me, tbh. I'm not interested in it at all because it's not my sexuality, and yet it is infiltrating my life anyway in the form of violent sex. Why is this? Because our culture as a whole teaches us women are submissive, they want to be dominated blah blah blah and a lot of men like this narrative because they enjoy inflicting pain on women, particularly in an era when they have less control over us and are fed resentful narratives on the internet. People can get up to what they like in private as far as I'm concerned, but when women start getting violently assaulted during sex and its turned a blind eye to, then something needs to be done.

It's not about if it's interesting or whether you find it boring though, it's about not calling abuse BDSM and vice versa and creating a clear distinction between the two. To do so, there needs to be some level of understanding and throwing around phrases about how it's all about getting slapped etc is part of the problem to begin with and why women are being assaulted in the name of it.

Isn't this totally irresponsible and will the BDSM community denounce this

Absolutely! Totally agree with you. I can't speak for all BDSM communities but I know that the one I have known would utterly denounce it.

Laws should not change for a few when they protect a whole lot more than they restrict. There is no comparison with the whole "but homosexuality was illegal" argument as being gay hurts noone.

Ultimately, BDSM is a niche kink. We know some bits teeter on the edge of the law re consent to assault. But as a person would only be prosecuted if reported, and that isnt going to be the case between consenting adults, I see no reason for the law to change.

I do see the need for more education in the law re the ethics of BDSM.

The pp who thinks all BDSM is boring is making me I would never say that vanilla sex is boring. Maybe I have just been blessed with BDSM partners that are great at both types of sex? I didnt realise men were expected to have no sexual skills in BDSM. I have obviously been aiming too high!

It's not about if it's interesting or whether you find it boring though, it's about not calling abuse BDSM and vice versa and creating a clear distinction between the two. To do so, there needs to be some level of understanding and throwing around phrases about how it's all about getting slapped etc is part of the problem to begin with and why women are being assaulted in the name of it.

Brilliant post. Completely agree.

No it’s sbout stopping the progression of bdsm and other kinks into the mainstream.
In agreement with you abuseofpower, I’m thoroughly sick of the creeping acceptance of fetishes and kinks into the mainstream.

The fact that power differential, ie hierarchy, is eroticised at all is a manifestation of patriarchy, even when the male us submissive.

That is the heart of the feminist critique of BDSM.

The fact that power differential is even more eroticised than it was a few decades ago,that it is being packaged and sold to us in media of all genres as the height of eroticism, is patriarchal backlash in action.

throwing around phrases about how it's all about getting slapped etc It's all about getting slapped, who exactly has said that? We're all abundantly clear of what BDSM is and the rules surrounding it, gawd knows we have to hear about this stuff all the f*in time. My point, I believe, is the same as yours, that it has been used as an excuse to abuse women. If any useful conversation is to be had about this is would help if people stopped willfully misinterpreting what I'm saying because you don't like the fact I'm not into BDSM personally and take that as an affront.

BickerinBrattle I completely agree. I would still defend people's right to practice BDSM in private, but that doesn't mean it should be immune from a feminist critique, especially when it starts to negatively impact the lives of women who don't want it.

It's not just about consent, though, or about the fact that it sometimes becomes full-blown abuse. It's that the growth of BDSM suggests that many men people can only find sexual release through simulating violence against their partner. And whether we, as a society, think that that impulse should be reinforced and normalised and mainstreamed, or whether we think it's fundamentally unhealthy, a huge threat to women, and should at the very least be questioned.

MsLucyLastic I want to ask you a question, but I don't want to be insensitive, so please don't answer if it is too distressing. I was wondering why you didn't prosecute the man who raped you?

@abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise
they think it makes them so much more interesting or sexy if they twat you around the face rather than actually have any sexual skills.
This is what I was referring to and what seems to be a popular choice of language around this subject. If everyone already knows that isn't what BDSM is, these type of phrases shouldn't be used.
I don't know why you think I would care if you don't enjoy the same things as I do, I completely respect that and I don't see it as an affront in the slightest. I've already said I wish it wasn't becoming mainstream and that it was better underground.

people can only find sexual release through simulating violence against their partner.
Mostly it's not sexual release.

I'm going to say something very politically incorrect but quite frankly I don't care anymore.

I'm NOT ok with consenting adults just being able to do whatever they like to each other for the sake of a shag.
I understand it's a 'lifestyle' but that doesn't give you the right to do things that would be otherwise illegal.

The rights of the individual to get off however they choose does NOT trump the rights of women to live in a society where violence against them isn't sexualised.
The personal is political.

You might be ok with those acts being done to you, but abusers are hiding behind your kink.

Can't think of a bigger clit shrinker than that to be honest.