‘More acceptance’ of S&M needed

[Imnobody4]

talkradio.co.uk/news/more-acceptance-needed-sm-activities-19032230392
My morning isn't starting well. Haven't heard the programme - not sure I could stand it.

It was a poster on this thread who said they like bondage because it sets off their fight or flight instinct.
Sorry that was me, I meant to say that what I meant by this was that my response takes affect when I'm bound because my natural instincts when restrained are to fight. When I cannot fight, after consenting to be bound, I produce massive amounts of adrenaline from it, which is one of the physical parts of bondage I like. Not by far the only or main thing and at no point in my mind do I think "I might die."

at no point in my mind do I think "I might die."

Not in your conscious mind maybe - but your animal adrenaline surge telling you to fight or flee says your unconscious believes otherwise.

It's like people who like speeding along on motorbikes get off on. It's the thrill of dicing with death and coming away alive.

No prizes for guessing that I absolutely cannot stand fast motorbikes and I am never getting on one again.

Want to say please keep going, all you BDSM activists, because you're doing for BDSM what the transactivists have done for gender critical women: confirmed opponents' worst suspicions and strengthened their understanding of, and opposition to it.

BettyDuMonde all the way through this thread, those of us into BDSM have said that it isn't something you enter into lightly. You have to know what you are doing. Or it would be really fucking dangerous.

I am not sure what more you want us to say? We don't want it mainstream, and certainly don't agree with abusers hiding behind BDSM to abuse.

We can highlight the red flags to distinguish an abuser from a Dom (or indeed a Dom who is abusive). We have discussed all that.

What more do you want us to do?

Oh and whichever PP said that by giving details of our BDSM lives, we are making it all about us: do you know how personally revealing it feels to tell strangers those things? It feels violating.

I am only doing it so any woman reading this who is being assaulted, under the guise of BDSM, will know that what she is experiencing isn't normal or legal. If it makes a difference to someone, then it is worth me feeling on display, in a horrible way.

So piss off implying that we are somehow attention seeking.

So piss off implying that we are somehow attention seeking.
I have to second this if I'm being honest. I've said it already, but I don't think I'm 'cool' or 'special' or whatever it is posters think. If this conversation was a RL one I would be sitting quietly nodding and smiling most likely. We have made ourselves extremely vulnerable on this thread for the sake of having the discussion. If we wanted to make an exhibition of ourselves we would not be doing it on an online anonymous forum.

*thatdamnwoman

Want to say please keep going, all you BDSM activists, because you're doing for BDSM what the transactivists have done for gender critical women: confirmed opponents' worst suspicions and strengthened their understanding of, and opposition to it*

Several of us on here are not BDSM activists. We havent attempted to promote what we do as a good thing, just dispel some myths.

If you hate it, fine. That matters not. We are all allowed our own opinions.

Interesting that you liken a few BDSMers describing BDSM to TRAs. Isn't that how TRAs try and slap GCFs down? By likening them to transphobes?

Point being, you can liken BDSMers to TRAs all you want but the difference is: we are not asking you to ignore biological reality. Nor are we asking you to ignore the evidence of your own eyes....we have simply sought to explain what it is that you are seeing, and how it is not about what pop culture says it is about.

Gripe about it because it is anti-feminist, fair enough. But trying to compare a few women discussing their personal experience on a website, with TRAs who are organised activists and trying to erase women, is not only a bit of a stretch, it is not even in the same ballpark.

Still, I am sure you weren't aware when you wrote your post that you were also using TRA tactics in what you just said. I hope.

Thirding

I was told I was making it all about me when I was giving my experiences.

There are abusers in every walk of life. There are men who hit. Headfuck.

I certainly don’t want them able to use bdsm to excuse that abuse and I do my level best to ensure that when I have the opportunity to explain to new folks on the scene how to recognise abuse and how to keep themselves as safe as possible, i do it.

I personally don’t watch or agree with porn.

I’ve never seen people on a Saturday afternoon up the high street with a butt plug doing puppy play. I’ve seen it in private but I would totally condemn anyone who does anything like that without the consent of all those who are able to see it - and I have publicly condemned same. And stopped attending a particular late night event as a result.

My belief - my personal belief - is that this a part of my sexuality that I can’t change. You may disagree, as is your absolute right.

I don’t appreciate having words put into my mouth either. If I saw or heard a Dom/me at that, I’d be pulling them up.

I’ve never seen people on a Saturday afternoon up the high street with a butt plug doing puppy play.

I have literally seen that.

And all the people reading this that don't know about it, keep an eye out for it, I bet you will start to see it.

It's especially prevalent when pride marches are on.
It's why I stopped taking children on the marches or taking them to town when they were on.

Fucking grim. We don't have to take part as props in your sexual fetish. Doing that in public should be considered a form of sexual offence.

Moving on, the way I see it is that we all agree that:

1. BDSM/kink is dangerous and if people do get into it, it needs strict rules to be adhered to, to make it safer.

1. The mainstreaming of BDSM and the minimising, sanitising language that goes with the mainstreaming process, is a bad thing because it will mean some people will go into it without full awareness of the dangers or of the importance of following safety rules.

1. The mainstreaming is also a bad thing because it is harder to maintain a community and culture of safety if it expands to include loads more people and will attract more abusers.

1. The practices themselves are pretty anti-feminist, since it is gendered with more female submissives and more male dominants. Also the practices which give men power of life or death over women is the very thing feminists want to emancipate women from. Additionally, to an onlooker it is not clear that the sub is into it, so pictorial representations, ie porn serves to culturally desensitise us to women's degradation, suffering, powerlessness, torture and abuse, because, even in the most horrific circumstances of cruelty against a woman, people might think "maybe she was into it?". It makes it harder for victims to be believed.

1. Already sadists are using BDSM as an excuse for vilest cruelty against women and girls. The practitioners need to find a way of saying 'not in my name'.

Over 4 years ago (I just checked) I put a public post on fetlife about all the laws that were potentially being broken if someone undertook public “play” in the UK.

I condemn it utterly and I won’t be around it.

It’s in my workshops how off limits it is and the legalities.

Not in my name. And don’t lump all BDSM folks with people that do that.

What the fuck more can I do?

Damn. X posts. I guess I just don’t fit the stereotype. Ah well.

If you are part of a real (or is it the real) BDSM community then I accept that with the rules and understanding in place it should be safe and enjoyable if you actually enjoy that type of activity.

I met someone who had ED,, said he wanted to experiment with BDSM but as i didn't understand how dangerous this could be and wanted to please him I ended up doing a lot of things that hurt, that I didn't enjoy and that were not geared to my pleasure at all. I now know from finding out more about his general behaviour that he was a narcissist and that any sexual activity was going to be for his pleasure only. I strongly suspect he had gone down that route before and I was groomed to be compliant. I'm very relieved to have escaped from what he called "Mr Pervys playpen" . I was naive enough to think this was just something else to try but for years i had hardly any enjoable sexual activity with him and went home feeling abused - the verbal abuse which he said was "in play" was the most traumatic for me, actually, I'm not a slut or a whore and the constant repetition of this took its toll. It is hard to know how to say to people not to get involved with anyone engaging in this sort of thing unless you have some way of knowing you can trust them.

I think where there is no agreement is:

1. 'No true Scotsmen' are the practitioners on this thread typical? Do they represent the majority of the BDSM community? Are those who they don't agree with 'not real' BDSM?

1. Should the laws be changed to accommodate more freedom or more safety or should the laws we have be better enforced?

This is a quote :

As I have said, those are the relevant pieces of legislation that you could potentially contravene by undertaking public play. That could be as simple as leading a sub on a collar and leash or it could be spanking or it could be more sexual play.

The issue isn't the act, or the people doing the act, and their consent or otherwise - the issue is those who witness the act and whether they are offended or caused distress or alarm.

Much like with the law on harassment and disability hate speech - it isn't what the person spouting off thinks - it's what the person it's aimed at feels that is important.

And that's before the issue of the fact that it is impossible to consent to assault and battery and even if your play partner was to say "But I allowed him to hit me it's ok" - that doesn't matter. The assault and battery is an offence in law in and of itself - the consent or otherwise of the victim is irrelevant. There are limited exceptions by custom and practice for sporting activities and the like, but these are limited and BDSM does not fall into those exceptions.

I am not saying that if you were to engage in public play you would immediately be arrested and charged. What I am saying is, these are the relevant pieces of legislation that you are contravening and these are the offences that you are potentially committing.

Any kinkster who wants to give it a go and be the mug to take a test case, knock yourself out.

Pre-spanner there was the Donovan case, my comment below:

Over 50 years separate the Donovan and Brown cases and the thought is that many practitioners of BDSM were taking the view that the fact that there hadn't been a case in 50 years meant that defacto BDSM had become legal by default - the omission of a case meant that it was now legal. It was stated clearly in the Brown case that BDSM still remained illegal and it was for Parliament to act to make it legal, should they so wish to do so.

Also for those who believe that writing of a contract to cover a scene will cover their ass - no such luck, not in this particular smidge of blob of jurisdiction.

The relevant case in UK law is Sutton v Mischon de Reya and the attempt to enforce a BDSM contract was described as "an attempt to rectify an unlawful ideal" and the contract was unenforceable.

I could go on. I make it clear it’s illegal. I don’t think some of you realise just how much those of us in the community are trying to enforce standards.

Not in my name. And don’t lump all BDSM folks with people that do that.

But you don't own the term BDSM people ARE doing it in your name.
I'm not lumping them together with you, they already use your name. And then they are using your name to campaign for the legitimisation of these practises.

You can't then get annoyed that not everyone is using the same definition and parameters as the ones you have created.

Bankofenglandfiver thanks for working so hard to get the point across. It makes subs, and Doms, safer.

I can do no more than I already do.

And I challenge violations of my standards where I see them and call them out.

Attacking me isn’t going to help solve the issue. You’re having a go at the wrong person.

I'm not attacking you.

I'm trying to get you to see that we have valid concerns and someone on the internet saying they put on a workshop doesn't make our valid concerns go away.

Have I said it makes your concerns go away?

Bdsm is going to exist. Pushing it further underground and pushing people like me away - attacking me, to the point where i go fuck it, not worth the shit I take - will not help your cause.

I’m telling you there are “ethical” (for want of a better word) BDSM practitioners who are already awareness raising and campaigning within the community and you don’t have the same awareness of that due to not being in the community.

The stories of abuse excused as sex in the media seem to be individuals committing the acts alone on women that there is no evidence have interest in bdsm. Not people that are part of an organised group with rules.

A couple second Google produces pages of results of reports/articles by women saying they were abused within BDSM communities.

1. 'No true Scotsmen' are the practitioners on this thread typical? Do they represent the majority of the BDSM community? Are those who they don't agree with 'not real' BDSM?

I think we are pretty typical. I have never known a group of people so focused on safety, consent and protecting each other. If people don't follow the rules, then they may call themselves BDSMers but they are not part of, or reflective of, the core BDSM communities.

Even online kink communities like Fetlife have strict rules to abide by. Doms warn subs away from bad eggs who they suspect, but can't prove, are abusers.

2. Should the laws be changed to accommodate more freedom or more safety or should the laws we have be better enforced?

I believe the law should remain as it is. A sub is only going to prosecute if she didn't consent anyway. If both parties are happy, neither will go to the police.

As I said upthread, the law has to protect the majority, not the few. Changing the law suggests that BDSM is about pain and abuse and we should accept that. No we shouldn't. It gives abusers a defence to hide behind.

They just haven't made it to court, I imagine. Given an individual woman in a relationship is assumed to have consented, imagine how a woman participating in BDSM community events would be treated.