‘More acceptance’ of S&M needed

[Imnobody4]

talkradio.co.uk/news/more-acceptance-needed-sm-activities-19032230392
My morning isn't starting well. Haven't heard the programme - not sure I could stand it.

WeRiseUp

I do not accept that the word 'pervert' was responsible for the rape or the lack of reporting

Yet the poster said outright that having been called a pervert prevented her from reporting the rape. You know better do you?

Yet the poster said outright that having been called a pervert prevented her from reporting the rape.

The poster said a lot of other stuff too.

And noone said the word pervert was responsible for the rape. Just one of the reasons why women into BDSM don't report it. They know the names they will be called and internalize them.

People may not like the fact that in our society, "pervert" has moved far beyond its original meaning of sexual perversion, into an image associated with creepy sex offenders. But it has. Call the acts perverted all you like. But calling the people themselves perverts, is really horrible.

Fucking hell apocalypse. That's awful.

Maybe it is where you hang out and who with. I know loads of pervs.

The poster said a lot of other stuff too.

Including that she had internalised being called a pervert and so felt unable to report rape. Please think about the words you use. If others tell you that those words have serious, negative impacts, why wouldn't any kind person want to commit to not using them in the future?

If people don't know what connotations a word now has, fair enough. To continue using it once it has been pointed out, is not indicative of a compassionate human really.

Fucking hell apocalypse. That's awful.

Nah, plenty have had worse. He raped my body, not me. He doesn't get to have a starring role in my life. He was an inadequate who has my pity.

What really did make me feel traumatized was not being believed by other women. It was all "yeah, but you are into BDSM so you like that stuff, are you sure he knew you didn't want it and it wasn't a sex game gone wrong".

That was worse than the rape. Those women weren't from the BDSM community, they were in real life and when I posted here for support.

Friends who were Doms got me through it. By saying over and over that I hadn't consented and it was rape.

That's why I am so passionate about all this.

Tbh I am really tired of having my language policed by people who don't want to have reality named. It it insensitive to call a prostituted woman prostituted and not a 'sex worker'? Is it insensitive to call a man a man and a woman a woman? Is it insensitive to call a pervert a perv? Probably if they don't want to be addressed in that way. But I am fed up.

I am fed up of having to tiptoe around the sensitivities of the abnormal and deviant and pretend that everything is hunky dory.

I will, for the purposes of this thread, say 'perverted' rather than 'pervert' though, as I don't want to be hurtful, but at the same I don't want to compromise my right to name reality.

That was worse than the rape

Right.

My sympathy just drained away with that misogynist bs.

That's fair enough. I suppose the difference is that calling someone a man or a woman is a fact.

Calling people perverts is an opinion. So it is your reality, but not mine, if that makes sense?

I had No idea that prostitutes are now sex workers. Wonder why that changed? Still, if it makes them happy then it is no skin off my nose.

Wonder why that changed?

It's been really pushed by brothel keepers and pimps to make their exploiting of the vulnerable look like legitimate entrepreneurship and the punters look like 'customers' buying a 'service'.

It's to normalise, destigmatise, expand and profit without criticism.

why wouldn't any kind person want to commit to not using them in the future?

This is what TRA’s say when they’re trying to force their language on everyone else. It’s manipulative. It’s a way of normalising ideas and behaviours that most of society do not support. I, as a fellow victim of many assaults ( which I won’t share in graphic detail as that can be retraumatising to other victims ) have enormous sympathy for survivors of rape and assault. I do not think blaming women on this thread for their use of the word pervert or perverted being a reason rape is not reported, is fair or reasonable. We can’t control how others see us, and most of us see BDSM as perverted. That’s not intended to be hurtful to rape victims, or to make them feel like they cannot report rape. Most women don’t report rape, because most women are not believed, regardless of whether they’re into BDSM or not.

WeRiseUp

My sympathy just drained away with that misogynist bs

What? That isn't misogynistic bullshit. It is true. Here is why: a rapist is an utter abusive Arsehole, and that's how I categorise mine in my head.

But when I was raped, I thought other women would support me. Good women, friends. Yet several of them seemed to want to make excuses for him or to blame the rape on me. That was their internalized misogyny.

It felt like a more hurtful betrayal to not have the support of those women, than the rape itself was. I could pigeon hole him as a total animal. I couldn't pigeon hole them that way. They were my friends. And they said things that suggested they didn't believe me. After all those years of friendship. That hurt far more in all honesty.

Then I came on here, and was told I was a male troll looking for kicks. It was fucking awful.

People weren't awful because they were women, it just so happened that, aside from the rapist, the people that made me feel terrible were women. And it felt like a betrayal of "sisterhood" almost (sounds wanky I know).

We all know some men are violent rapists, but I expected the women I talked to about it to be there for me. They weren't. After years of friendship, yes that hurt far more.

S&m is a thing disgusting misogynistic men have invented to legitimately perpetrate violence against women. In my view women who participate are themselves male identified and have internalised misogyny. Don't @ me

Still, if it makes them happy then it is no skin off my nose.

Changing the way society views prostitution, to see it as work and not exploitation, is damaging not just to those used for sex, but to all women, IMO.

As someone who has worked in the sex ‘industry’ (albeit many years ago) I hate ‘sex worker’ because it sanitises the horribleness.

Look at the comments from punters (‘johns’ - men who pay for sex) collated by Nordic Model Now - there is no other form of ‘work’ where it is acceptable to describe ‘workers’ in these terms:

nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-punters-are-lonely-single-men/

*It's been really pushed by brothel keepers and pimps to make their exploiting of the vulnerable look like legitimate entrepreneurship and the punters look like 'customers' buying a 'service'.

It's to normalise, destigmatise, expand and profit without criticism*

Bleurgh!

Changing the way society views prostitution, to see it as work and not exploitation, is damaging not just to those used for sex, but to all women, IMO

That is a fair point.

I suppose the thing with TRAs is that they are using language to try to make the word "woman" meaningless, and going against factual biology to do so.

Calling someone a pervert is an opinion not a fact. Certain acts may seem perverted but, unless they tell you, you have no way of knowing whether someone into BDSM partakes in those acts. So to call them a pervert, particularly with its pejorative connotations, isn't necessarily accurate.

So maybe we could call the acts sexually deviant or fringe or whatever, but not use those words to describe the practitioners? It does tend to reduce a person to the sum total of their sexual practices.

My "Bleurgh" was because their is something incredibly distasteful about trying to make women, who have to sell their bodies, sound like something that men could collect nectar points on.

maybe we could call the acts sexually deviant or fringe or whatever, but not use those words to describe the practitioners?

It's a toughie.

Deviant/fringe doesn't just cover BDSM but overlapping things like watersports, coprophelia, transvestism, fur, rubber, leather fetish, etc, etc. Much of it gives the majority of people a visceral reaction of disgust. People are allowed to think it is disgusting and perverted even if practitioners view it as something as innocuous sounding as 'breath play'.

Visceral reactions of disgust are an important boundary to protect us from abuse. Rationalising ourselves out of disgust in order to be kind primes us to be abused.

Thing Beauty and the Beast and The Frog Prince. These are stories to rationalise little girls out of disgust and prime them.

sound like something that men could collect nectar points on.

Absolutely. There are even some pimps who have put women on '2 for 1' offers. The disrespect is off the scale.

Visceral reactions of disgust are an important boundary to protect us from abuse. Rationalising ourselves out of disgust in order to be kind primes us to be abused.

Yeah I agree with this a lot.

While I understand the point regarding I guess, name-calling, and the wish to see people as more than just their ‘sexual pratices’, I worry about normalising behaviours I think are fundamentally harmful.

Absolutely. There are even some pimps who have put women on '2 for 1' offers.

It literally happens in the Philippines, I've seen it.

*Visceral reactions of disgust are an important boundary to protect us from abuse. Rationalising ourselves out of disgust in order to be kind primes us to be abused.

Thing Beauty and the Beast and The Frog Prince. These are stories to rationalise little girls out of disgust and prime them*

Yes, that's true actually. Do we have to voice that disgust towards people we know do those things? I don't think so. Unless they are trying to persuade us to join in.

If asked, I would say that I find water sports grim. But I wouldn't call the person grim IYSWIM.

Two for one by pumps is just vile. Women's bodies should never be for sale.

They see BDSM as an "in" with women more likely to be "up" for their abuse. They are very bloody wrong. No woman is up for abuse.

I think it's more that they think they are more likely to get away with it.