‘More acceptance’ of S&M needed

[Imnobody4]

talkradio.co.uk/news/more-acceptance-needed-sm-activities-19032230392
My morning isn't starting well. Haven't heard the programme - not sure I could stand it.

I do not think the people are perverts, I think the acts are perverted. There is a difference.
I wasn't implying you personally had, but other people on this thread (and out of it) have done so.
I also wasn't implying anyone is saying abuse on any woman is acceptable or her fault. But when that woman is called a disgusting pervert and then later is raped, it can have devastating effects.

But when that woman is called a disgusting pervert and then later is raped, it can have devastating effects.

Of course it can.

But the fault lies firmly at the door of the rapist.

Not at the door of women who are discussing how the sexual perversion bdsm affects the sex class of women.

No one is calling you a disgusting pervert. Saying bdsm is a perversion is not the same as calling you a disgusting pervert.

Well. ... showing my age here. Madonna is the classic Catholic with perverted sexuality. She even said she was excited about recording 'Like A Virgin' because it was "perverted" and naughty to her and she considered herself a pervert.

The video was pretty shocking at the time because she was crawling around on all fours in stocking and suspenders - she had brought the world of kink and porn into mainstream family entertainment - Top of the Pops and MTV.

I think it all ramped up prior to her becoming a mum, but I remember in the documentary film (what was it called?) a drag queen was saying that Madonna had done a lot to 'legitimise sex' but really she brought BDSM (and the sex industries) to the mainstream. Think "you've gotta like hanky panky, nothing like a good spanky".

Madonna was totally aware of it all being perverted and she loved being subversive and confrontational about it in her work.

Much as I actually love Madonna in a lot of ways, I don't appreciate what she did to bring perversion and the sex industries to the mainstream.

Of course its not just Madonna - Grayson Perry, a similar age as her, also self describes as being a pervert.

It is ridiculous that these conscious efforts to mainstream the sexual fringes in a provocative, artistic kind of 'punk rock' way has led to all these recent efforts complain about 'stigma'.

I spent 8 years in a strange relationship with an older man, now in his 70s. Over the years before he met me he had watched increasingly violent pornography to help him cope with what he says was an inadequate supply of sex in his primary relationship. As a result of the pornography and linked masturbation he developed ED and as he struggled with conventional sex he decided our relationship would be BDSM. I think i was groomed to permit this but before long i was subjected to being whipped, uncomfortably tied up, hair pulled and hog tied. he would whip me in tender areas like on my breasts and made me call him "Sir" and say "thank you" I was also on the receiving end of vile abuse, which seemed to help turn him on. I agreed to all this because I wanted to make him happy. i didn't enjoy any of this but did find it interesting to begin with, then a bit boring.

I suspect that the increase in this sort of behaviour is fuelled by porn. This is not genuine BDSM which is performed for the pleasure of both parties but just an excuse for meant to inflict pain and humiliation on women like me who maybe feel a bit sorry for their partners, or who go down a route of exploration it is difficult to turn back from.

Basically it is ludicrous that BDSM practitioners are now acting like wet blanket precious snowflakes and are too sensitive to own the fact they are perverts.

It isn't to far a remove from transvestites having a nervous breakdown if people dont pretend they are literally women.

People really need to start butching up and owning who they are and what they do instead of expecting everyone else to tread on eggshells, or they'll get mortally offended by the terrible transgression of reality actually being named.

higgyhog

A friend of mine was always in trying to keep her man happy, she is also fantastic at telling an anecdote so it all seemed very amusing, but in reality she found it all boring and absurd. I remember her mentioning wearing rubber stockings and seeing her feet above her with annoying pockets of air at the end- that looked ridiculous and unsexy- and that was all she had in mind while he shagged her. She made it sound laugh out loud funny, but in reality, it's totally depressing that she wasn't into any of it.

higgyhog I am so sorry. That is absolutely awful.
I suspect that the increase in this sort of behaviour is fuelled by porn. This is not genuine BDSM which is performed for the pleasure of both parties but just an excuse for meant to inflict pain and humiliation on women like me who maybe feel a bit sorry for their partners, or who go down a route of exploration it is difficult to turn back from.
I agree with this ^^
Basically it is ludicrous that BDSM practitioners are now acting like wet blanket precious snowflakes and are too sensitive to own the fact they are perverts.
I was a wet blanket precious snowflake for believing that I was a pervert, sexually dysfunctional, akin to a paedophile, repulsive and less than human after being told so, then being very violently raped and believing that no one would care that a pervert was raped, that I was scum of the earth and deserved it? I guess it was my fault for being too sensitive.

Hang on hang on.

Don't pull that manipulative stuff.

Being a pervert is not akin to being a pedophile.

This all or nothing stuff is frequently being used to force people into saying things they don't believe.

Being a pervert is not the same thing as being a sex criminal.

All sex criminals are perverts, but not all perverts are sex criminals.

then being very violently raped and believing that no one would care that a pervert was raped, that I was scum of the earth and deserved it? I guess it was my fault for being too sensitive.

This is really upsetting.

People who care about anyone being raped couldn't give a shit what turns them on or what they do. Unfortunately the number of people who actually give a shit about women being raped is vanishingly small. The majority think it was the victim's fault and it doesn't matter what she did, they will in some way work out how to blame her.

I was a wet blanket precious snowflake for believing that I was a pervert, sexually dysfunctional, akin to a paedophile, repulsive and less than human after being told so, then being very violently raped and believing that no one would care that a pervert was raped, that I was scum of the earth and deserved it? I guess it was my fault for being too sensitive.

This is classic bait and switch.

The being violently raped part has nothing to do with people saying that bdsm is a sexual perversion.

You keep repeating this as though anyone here has said you deserved to be raped because you engaged in bdsm.
No one thinks that here.

It's not us minimising sexual violence.

Thank you for the kindnesses shown. He is now with another woman (and that is a long story) all the porn etc. has damaged his sexuality and made him not only a physically dangerous man but one who can't really have a proper relationship on an emotional level. I wish there was some way to convey the damage porn does without always coming across as prudish or strident.

I agree there is a huge difference between calling the acts perverted and the people perverts. The former is fine. The latter isn't.

Of course men are responsible for not violating consent, but as this is a FWR discussion, then women are who I was aiming the comments at.

Whoever said I was arrogant because I was dismissing other women's horrific experiences. Not at all. I was brutally raped and sexually assaulted. I am still living with the physical repercussions of it now.

What would have helped me avoid being in that situation (aside from the man not being a rapist), was to have recognized the warning signs that the man was an abuser rather a Dom.

Those signs are what I have been describing throughout this thread.

I am concerned with women recognising abusive situations and getting out before they are attacked like I was. It wasn't my fault that I was raped and didn't recognise the signs. But I can help others.

Condemning the whole thing from the sidelines doesn't practically help.

I am not trying to be manipulative fgs. I am trying to point out why it can be damaging to call people perverts and insist that they accept this term.
I have not at all pointed out continually that anyone is victim blaming, I haven't even been talking about personal experiences so certainly not from the view point that anyone is blaming me.
But from my personal experiences of course calling me a pervert and a wet blanket is a sensitive thing when it effected me so badly and all I am trying to do is point out why this is the case for me and could be to others.
I am genuinely upset that my brief account of my personal experience and why I have a problem with certain terms or why anyone might, has led me to being called manipulative. I very rarely speak of it and the feminism board is one of the very few places I would feel comfortable to, as there are so many truly brave survivors here who will.
I am sure this statement will now be called manipulative too though and I think for my own preservation it's probably best I don't engage anymore.
I genuinely hope that there can be a solution to BDSM in the mainstream and that collaboratively the community and those outside it can work to prevent it causing abuse.

I think recognising abusers is not a specialism of BDSM practitioners. The red flags will be similar across the board.

There are 2 issues:

1. Abusers and a patriarchal, misogynists culture than enables them to abuse with impunity.

And

1. Vulnerability to abuse fostered by a misogynist, patriarchal culture that grooms victims in advance to not recognise or take measures to avoid abuse, and then blames and punishes them for it.

WeRiseUp

How dare you! You have been someone on these threads describing those of us into BDSM as perverts. With all the awful connotations of flashers, paedophiles etc that that term illicits.

Fine to find the acts perverted, but you have been told several times that calling people perverts is upsetting. You called us snowflakes.

You then have the audacity to say it is "upsetting" when a woman describes the influence that being called a pervert had on her ability to report her rape.

YOU are one of the reasons she didn't feel able to report it. A person more interested in "telling it how it is" and "calling a spade a spade" (translation: someone who prioritised their right to be obnoxious over the feelings of others, because they think that those who have those feelings are "snowflakes" I.e. weak).

Instead you give her flowers. Why not tell her to butch up and really have the courage of your convictions.

Men may be the rapists and abusers. Women who prevent other women from coming forward but perpetuating the verbal abuse and name calling, are their handmaidens.

ApocalypseLaterOn you are in a bit of a muddle.

You haven't addressed the issue that the BDSM "community" has plenty of abusive men.

A poster said she knew this from experience, and you ignored her.

@agirlhasnonameX you aren't being manipulative. That is the word people throw out when their "theoretical" conversation is pulled up short by the reality of someone saying "no, that isn't how it is in real life".

You havent been manipulative at all. Simply shown that the words people use, affect the ability of other women's to report rape.

When I described my rape on MN, I was called a troll, and told that I was making it up as what happened to me is a common male fantasy. They said I was a bloke writing about it for kicks.

Clearly they didn't have the brain power to equate common male fantasy with my being raped by a man, fulfilling his male fantasy.

Now I AM NOT SAYING FOR ONE SECOND that anyone on this thread would respond like that. What I am saying is that a place you would expect to be safe from judgement to discuss is, isn't always.

When I was raped, I honestly found it to be women who implied it was somehow my fault because I was into BDSM, and men who firmly saw it as rape. Not just any men but Doms.

I dunno what that tells us about the real reaction of women and men to rape. Interesting though.

"upsetting" when a woman describes the influence that being called a pervert had on her ability to report her rape.

No, what I find upsetting is the rape itself and that woman's own negative self-perception led to her not reporting her rape.

I do not accept that the word 'pervert' was responsible for the rape or the lack of reporting.

The rapist raped and the fact that it was within the context of BDSM complicated matters.

The word 'pervert' is a red herring.

WeRiseUp. No muddle here. I see you as a handmaiden. You are perpetuating nicely a woman's inability to report.

It is manipulative to say that naming someone as a pervert = calling them a pedo.

It is manipulative to suggest the word/stigma of 'pervert' and the people who use it, was actually responsible for either the horrific rape or the sad lack of reporting.

It is whipping up emotive scenarios to score certain points.

You are perpetuating nicely a woman's inability to report.

Bullshit

It is whipping up emotive scenarios to score certain points.

Yes it is.

*You haven't addressed the issue that the BDSM "community" has plenty of abusive men.

A poster said she knew this from experience, and you ignored her.*

The community does (or at least did when I was involved) have abusive men in it. They tend to be the ones who subs warn each other about and Doms warn subs about.

When I was a newbie, I had many Doms take it upon themselves to warn me about men they thought were dodgy, and to thoroughly teach me about the nuances of consent and what is and isnt normal. They checked in with me and kind of indirectly vetted the men I dated for me. They found out what they could to help me make a judgement about whether I was safe.

The man who raped me wasn't part of the community. I knew he was into BDSM but I did not realise until afterwards that he hated women and was simply abusive. The red flags WERE there. I chose to overlook them as I cared about him. Hindsight is 20:20.

He anally raped me with no lubricant, despite having penis piercings, then shoved a shower hose end repeatedly up my bottom to wash away evidence, despite my screams. He ripped me apart.

No part of that is BDSM. There is no way that my rapist thought I was consenting. No-one into BDSM would agree to that. Yet many agree to anal sex, and many enjoy giving each other enemas. Exactly the same acts, except one is rape and sexual assault, the other is consensual and would stop at any hint of pain that the sub didnt want.

Sadly, some abusers still exist in the community. Which is bloody terrible and tends to make Doms livid......it gives them a bad name so they are incensed.

These men may be in the community, but they are not following the unwritten rules of it. They are totally going against the ethos of BDSM.

There are red flags that can enable a sub to spot the difference, but for an amazing actor, these are not infallible. I suspect that these are the men who seem charming in real life and who would be violent rapists even if not in the BDSM context. They see BDSM as an "in" with women more likely to be "up" for their abuse. They are very bloody wrong. No woman is up for abuse.

These men will be everywhere. It is up to other men and women to keep each other as safe as possible, learn exactly what consent is, and support each other to prosecute abusers. Which IMO within BDSM, they very much do.