‘More acceptance’ of S&M needed

[Imnobody4]

talkradio.co.uk/news/more-acceptance-needed-sm-activities-19032230392
My morning isn't starting well. Haven't heard the programme - not sure I could stand it.

Hi, I am MsLucyLastic, back after a name change.

By God this thread is tiresome. The question in the OP was whether S&M needs more acceptance. Everyone, whether into BDSM or not, has said it would be better to remain underground, to avoid making it mainstream. Personally, I think BDSM becoming mainstream in a fashionable way, loses the nuances which differentiate BDSM from assault.

Not one of those of us who practice BDSM have said that it is pro-feminist. None of us have said that BDSM should ever be a defence to assault or rape. We have tried to explain the nuances which differentiate BDSM from assault, namely the avoidance of hurting someone beyond a level of their choosing.

There seems to be no attempt whatsoever to try to understand BDSM. It has always been there and will always be there.

Ranting about BDSM practitioners being mentally unwell (the data shows the opposite), performing pseudo psychoanalysis on posters online (unqualified I suspect), and totally missing the point that we are on your side and trying to help, is not the way to achieve your aims.

Using marginalising and pejorative language to describe people has never won any friends or influenced people.

You need to decide what you want. You won't end BDSM, no matter how much you protest that it is just violence. You cannot police it.

What you can do, is have the BDSM community highlight that BDSM is never a defence for assault, and informing women to keep them safe. But you will not get that by calling people perverse and mentally unwell, whether you think that or not.

So what do you want? To rant and be told that in theory you are right, it seems like violence against women? And then what? It can't be banned and it is already against the law to assault someone.

Much as the idea may revolt you, some women get off on being spanked, low level pain, being called names, being tied up, even being spat on (not me, but horses for courses and all that). You won't change that. Men get off on it too. It seems roughly 50:50 amongst people I know.

You can change women being assaulted and their consent being violated. By understanding BDSM and explaining that consent is sacrosanct and it should never hurt more than you want it to.

Or, you know, continue to rage into the void with precisely zero effect on women being assaulted.

Not all bdsm involves the woman getting hurt.

It has always been there and will always be there.

They say that about prostitution too don't they?

People.

(not me, but horses for courses and all that).

How dare you!

(Goes to stable to sulk and listen to Hall and Oates)

A local taxi firm raises awareness of slavery by displaying a sticker in each window and refusing to carry trafficked women.

The issue is this position

"some people are perverts and get off on pushing the boundaries of the taboo - to each their own."

Is fine. ...except.... some people are perverts and get off on crossing boundaries into harmful and abusive, non-consenting practices.

BDSM blurs the distinction between them - between being consenting perverts and abusive perverts.

The subtle distinctions made by individual practitioners are utterly worthless to an outside observer.

Normalising BDSM (abuse play) normalises (actual) abuse in the mainstream.

BTW. Although I am highly critical of BDSM and feel it is imperative to push back against its normalisation and representation in mainstream culture - i'm totally opposed to the practice itself being 'banned'. Existing laws should cover where it crosses into criminal abuse.

People are allowed to be perverts. Just don't expect perversion to be seen as normal and healthy.

Break it apart.

More acceptance of bondage is necessary. Why, exactly? A synonym for bondage is slavery. More acceptance of slavery is necessary. Oh, really?

More acceptance of domination is necessary. Really? If our goal is a more just and equitable society?

More acceptance of sadism is necessary. No comment.

More acceptance of masochism is necessary. Well, Freud believed that masochism was an innately female characteristic. Radical feminists argue that “femininity” is training in ritualised subordination. So I’d argue that, no, rather than more acceptance of masochism, we need very much the opposite, which is not training in domination but acceptance of and push toward a society not governed by hierarchies of power.

It’s not so much an issue of perversion, it’s that the sexual practices, into which some people at least are purposefully groomed and which are celebrated and stylised all over the media, stand in a 180-degree oppositional position to the ethics of the just society we’re all supposedly intent on moving toward.

The subtle distinctions made by individual practitioners are utterly worthless to an outside observer.

It doesn't matter what outsiders think. It matters what they understand. They need to know the distinctions.

Don't you get it?

By saying "it all looks the same", you are agreeing with those police and abusers who say "she knew what she was doing".

A woman cannot explain adequately that she didnt consent, if people refuse to see the distinction between consenting to behaviour that looks painful but isn't, and assault, then you are giving the perpetrators an excuse.

Also, calling people perverts is out of order, and will only deter women from coming forward to report crimes.

You aren't helping these women. Your attitude makes it harder for them and easier for the abusers.

I know that is noones intent here, really I do. But it is the outcome.

Horse 😀 Love the Hall and Oates reference.

BDSM blurs the distinction between them - between being consenting perverts and abusive perverts.

This is the complete opposite of the situation. Consent is a much bigger deal in the BDSM community than outside of it. In my experience at least.

When I was raped, friends who were Doms were quite clear that it was rape. A female friend who isnt into BDSM kept asking me "are you sure it wasn't a sex game gone wrong? Are you sure it was rape?" because she didn't understand the nuance.

Luckily for me, I spoke to someone at rape crisis who was also clear that it was rape. The lady there DID get the nuances of BDSM and knew without question that it was rape.

Knowing that some people are happy to call people perverts, though, may well deter women from reporting.

Something may seem perverted in your opinion, but that is not objective fact. It just makes the person voicing that opinion rude and cruel.

BickerinBrattle I agree with you by and large. Hence why BDSM should stay back in the shadows rather than become a fashion.

Unfortunately, Apocalypse, that horse and all its companions are already out of the barn and have leapt the fences, and the barn itself has burned down.

So now what?

Well, it needs to be clear to young women that they don't have to do anything which may hurt, and consent is needed for everything which a couple does.

This also applies to stuff like anal sex too. Some couples really enjoy it, others find it painful, and others would never try it in a million years.

If it hurts, stop. If the man carries on, then it is rape.

PIV sex can potentially be painful. The same applies to that too.

The rules re consent apply across the board. Noone has the right to do things to you that you don't want to do. No-one has the right to continue if a person doesn't want to. We manage to grasp that concept for other types of sex. Exactly the same rules should apply to BDSM.

People who think that BDSM is about women being hurt against their will and that that is "part" of it, are adding to the problem. It should never, ever be about that.

People who think that BDSM is about women being hurt against their will and that that is "part" of it, are adding to the problem. It should never, ever be about that.

Siiiiiiiiiiiigggggghh

Have you read the thread.

Why can't you embrace being a pervert if you are into BDSM? Of course you are. If you baulk at the idea of BDSM being called perversion then you are part of the problem - you think it should be seen as normal. It isn't normal. And to be fair, the fact that it us not normal and is perverted is a big part of the appeal. Own it.

Fuck me. In this day and age you can't call anything what it actually is.

WeRiseUp no, I don't see BDSM as mainstream and nor should it be. I have said that umpteen times. But it also isn't perverted.

YOU may think it is perverted, but to say that to others as a fact is rude, judgemental and goady.

In the same way that I may think someone is colosally stupid, my believing it doesn't make it true.

It is a personal attack, loaded with judgement. Not very conducive to respectful conversation.

Fuck me. In this day and age you can't call anything what it actually is.

PC gorn mad, isn't it?

People who think that BDSM is about women being hurt against their will

No one said that is what it revolves around. But you need to accept that not everyone in your "community" plays by your precious rules. I find it quite arrogant that you've ignored posters who say they have had a different experience to you.

YOU may think it is perverted, but to say that to others as a fact is rude, judgemental and goady

It is time to stop this creep - normalising degradation with softening language.

Campaigners I completely disagree with call prostitution 'sex work' and imply that it is rude, judgemental and goady to call prostitution prostitution.

No one has to accept BDSM as something other than perverted sexuality. No one is obliged to see it positively. No one is obliged to see it the way practitioners do.

Cross dressing for kicks, or any sort of fetish, for that matter, is perverted. But people are free to be perverts in their own space.

What is the problem?

When did judgement become a dirty word, when did being judgemental about an act worse than the damage created by the act?

I don't really care if you think it's judgemental to call someone being sexually aroused by pain, the simulation of pain or the play acting of complete submission of a partner of as a perversion. I'm more concerned about the way this damages women, rather than your feelings about whether I am judging you.

The word pervert I think can mean different things to lots of people. It is well known as a derogatory statement, which I think it's more than possible to make judgment without.
Freud classed paedophilia as a perversion.
It's common to use 'perv' to describe a man who has inappropriately touched or harassed someone.
By the meaning perversion- that it is to deviate from the sexual 'norm' I don't think is harmful itself, but to call someone a pervert is a pretty obvious slur.
I don't think anything is free from judgment, but at the same time I do think calling people perverts can have damaging connotations and it gives off the impression to me that the only concern should be women outside of BDSM and that those involved in it do not deserve the same respect or thought when considering abuse. A woman who is told she is a pervert, is not going to report abuse. I know this first hand.

Well, it needs to be clear to young women that they don't have to do anything which may hurt, and consent is needed for everything which a couple does.
It needs to be clear to men that getting violent with women during sex without consent is unacceptable, the onus should not fall on women, in the same way women aren't responsible for not getting raped. It's all very well to talk about consent for different sex acts, but that's not how it works in real life. Once a man is having sex with a woman he will often not ask for permission to do various things because porn shows them that's not what you do, and that women like being treated with violence, an idea which they have taken from BDSM. For the most of us who don't have lengthy discussions about what levels of violence we consent to or draw up contracts before having sex, things are more spontaneous, and unfortunately nowadays the results are men acting out violent acts they have seen in porn. Women are often not comfortable enough or even in shock or fear when such things happen, when they had previously been enjoying the moment. I find it depressing that it would even need to be expressed beforehand that you don't want to be violently assaulted during sex (and most women, especially with a new sexual partner, would not feel confident to explicitly say beforehand what they do and don't consent to, also it may not even occur to them that this could happen), but this is what the influence of BDSM and violent porn have done to the sex lives of young women.

Not one person in this thread has said that a woman who engages in bdsm is asking for abuse or the abuse perpetrated against her is any less bad than any other abuse.

I do not think the people are perverts, I think the acts are perverted. There is a difference.

So now what?
IMO, the BDSM community itself needs to be very clear about its position and practices. It needs to highlight its SSC and RACK awareness. It needs to try to inform (particularly) young people that BDSM is not for the large a sexual practice and that people involved in it to not condone violence, abuse or rape. I think if the main aspects of BDSM where to be the ones people thought of when they considered BDSM, it would seem much less enticing and exciting. There definitely needs to be emphasis on the fact it's not an expected or 'normal' thing to practice. Unfortunately with the nature it has grown to be mainstream in the first place, it is much more difficult for those in the community to warn people of predators and protect its participants and those outside of it.
The problem is though, people don't want to understand. They don't want to listen. If those people (BDSM) where to come forward, they would be shunned, called perverts and told their kink was disgusting and boring and to slink back into the shadows where they came from.