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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Multiple dead in Chch NZ - Mosques targetted

251 replies

Yeahnahyeah · 15/03/2019 02:29

Heart breaking. It's 3:37pm on Friday here, and this is actually fucking happening.
www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12213056

OP posts:
OtepotiLilliane42 · 19/03/2019 22:03

Thank you for the hug JessicaWakefieldSVH. I'm hoping that the Muslim community in Dunedin will feel reassured by the support shown to them, but today's ODT relates incidents of animosity towards immigrants and refugees here which is distressing. There will always be people who feel resentment, but as Dame Anne Salmond states, we have to create a society in which such behaviour is seen as just simply wrong.

The ODT has another excellent editorial today on the Christchurch attacks, which gives a historical context to the different waves of people who have chosen to come here over the years.

Extract:

A major fallacy in the argument of those wanting New Zealand to ''remain'' or ''return'' to being as culturally, ethnically or religiously ''pure'' as it always was is that New Zealand has never been mono-ethnic, mono-religious or mono-cultural. And it never will. Because our national genealogy is not one of ''purity''.

We are a port which has sheltered all sailors. We are a lodging house which has welcomed all travellers. That is what New Zealand is. It's what we've always been.

www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/tolerance-new-zealands-real-religion

I'm not going to comment anymore on this terrible event, but thank you to everyone who has posted with their expressions of sympathy, they are much appreciated, especially I am sure by people who live in Christchurch (thinking of you yeahnahyeah).

Eketahuna · 20/03/2019 22:49

Kia ora @JessicaWakefieldSVH, I really appreciate your perspective on this.

If anything positive can come out of this horrible tragedy, let's hope it's that our country can finally face up to the stain of racism running through our history, and find a way to heal and move forward.

Love to all New Zealanders hurting right now, especially the Muslim community. Flowers

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 21/03/2019 07:18

Eketahuna
Kia Ora! I used to live very near Eketahuna as a girl! And thank you, we can but hope. X

PerkingFaintly · 21/03/2019 07:32

Christchurch mosque shootings: New Zealand to ban military style weapons
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47648549

Six days after this attack, we are announcing a ban on all military style semi-automatics (MSSA) and assault rifles in New Zealand," Ms Ardern said in a news conference.
"Related parts used to convert these guns into MSSAs are also being banned, along with all high-capacity magazines."
An amnesty has been imposed so the owners of affected weapons can hand them in, and a buy-back scheme will follow.
[...]
Ms Ardern said measures had also been introduced to prevent gun stockpiling before the law changes.
As of Thursday, several weapons have been reclassified as military style semi-automatic firearms, making them harder to buy.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 21/03/2019 08:18

I’m pleased a ban of some guns but I’d prefer the ban to go wider. Men like my dad have rifles and they use to them to scare and intimidate their families. But Jacinda knows she won’t get that through, because her coalition partner is very against banning guns and has voted against it in the past. This will stop this type of massacre, but it will not protect all New Zealander’s, which is her job.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/03/2019 16:57

I have been watching the response... banning guns, I’m just not sure It would stop similar massacres though - and NZ is a rural country with a lot of legally owned and needed guns for pest control. Banning military style weapons ? Ok. Banning all? Hmmm no.

What’s more disturbing is the authoritarian response of NZ and Oz authorities in doing some of the following.

Banning access to various websites
Jordan Peters books has been removed from whitcolls. Now I’m no fan of his but banning books? that’s not good. Not good at all.
NZ police threatening 10-14 years for just watching the video.

The manifesto, if you can bear to plough your way through it , he wanted this to happen. He was I think an accelerationist and this plays directly into what his aims were.

You cannot make people like each other by banning debate and calling either side racist. You decrease tension by open and honest debate, and getting people to view each other as fellow citizens and humans. Crackdowns on speech, however objectionable that speech is, just fuel the problem. Bear in mind people have been arrested in nz for sharing the video, and arrested in the uk for tweeting support.

Freedom of thought and speech, and transparent, fair law is what differentiates countries like nz and the us and the uk from the kind of places a lot of the victims were fleeing from.

The response to this should be compassion and support for victims families and a clear eyed look at HOW he was able to stockpile those weapons and if there were any missed chances to stop this. All I’m seeing from the political side is using the event as an excuse to crack down on civil liberties along with a huge dose of virtue signalling.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 21/03/2019 17:11

All I’m seeing from the political side is using the event as an excuse to crack down on civil liberties along with a huge dose of virtue signalling.

Agree with this. I disagree on what you say on gun control. Not sure if you lived in rural NZ also? But guns are not required for pest control, not at all. DOC deal with pest control and there are other methods which don’t endanger people. My Dad used the pest control excuse to access and hold 2 rifles, but he mostly used them to keep us inline. NZ has a massively violent culture, it’s normalised to an extent. Women expected to forgive and help men get over their problems etc If you banned them, considering our closest neighbours gun laws, it would be very hard to get guns into NZ.

It’s too soon to say, but I am worried we won’t have the honest conversations needed. There are problems in NZ because we have two extremes- extreme liberal views and extreme alt right white supremacy style views, not much in between. Maybe it’s the isolation? We don’t tolerate different opinions and lifestyles well at all. Debates on many issues can be very heated and divisive.

I’m appalled Peterson’s books are pulled and that children are being threatened for watching the video- the daily mail had it on their homepage running as soon as you hit the page whether you clicked on the story or not. I had to scroll madly to stop seeing it.

The virtue signalling and fawning of Jacinda is doing my head in. I am avoiding a lot of media this week.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/03/2019 18:23

I lived on a farm for a while, and we used guns - doc trap etc in the national parks but farmers do need access, as do professional hunters and recreational hunters. I can totally understand you have a different view given your experience and I respect that - gun control is a difficult one.

I have to say I’m watching Jacinda don a hijab and it’s making me feel very odd. I’m not sure how to express what I think about that, so I shan’t. Fawning is a good way to put it. What’s needed I think is less emotion and more calm thought and open discussion - we can’t deal with violence unless we can talk about it. But emotional incontinence seems to be the modern woke response...

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 21/03/2019 18:26

but farmers do need access, as do professional hunters and recreational hunters

I’m sorry, that’s not a ‘need’, it’s a ‘want’.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 21/03/2019 18:27

Yes it’s making me feel odd too. I’m trying to be generous and think it’s to make the appearance of a woman in hijab less scary or strange to others. I’m completely against the practice though. I’m not sure she should of done that.

Anyway... I’m still waiting for other Kiwis to support the idea of Parihaka Day... they’ll accept hijab but not Māori culture... says it all.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 21/03/2019 19:45

I just read there’s loads of women wearing hijab ‘to show support’... my goodness.

Eketahuna · 21/03/2019 22:31

Yes, it seems like an empty gesture to me. I won't be wearing one, in solidarity with the many women around the world who risk so much for the choice not to.

I'm right behind the idea of Parihaka Day. I can't believe NZ history is still not taught in our schools, either. Te reo should also be compulsory imo.

Rachel Stewart wrote an interesting column on gun control. I can see where she's coming from re the need to put animals down humanely - but I'm also vegan, so in my ideal world culling bobby calves would never be a thing.

www.newstalkzb.co.nz/opinion/rachel-stewart-owning-firearms-a-privilege-not-a-right/

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 21/03/2019 22:41

Eketahuna I’m vegan too! We have a lot in common! ( I grew up initially in mangatainoka ) I actually read an article by a Muslim women on the hijab harmony thing and she was not impressed, found it to be tokenism and I agree. It’s not helping anything, they can all take it off and many women suffer in some countries for not wearing one. Best to stay out of it IMO.
Te Reo is a beautiful language and it is a huge benefit to be bilingual. It’s so dumb not to teach it from kinda!
I observe Parihaka Day ( Nov 5th ) every year. To honour the passive resistance against extreme acts of violence and force. Instead of honouring war, I choose to honour peace. I’m so proud to be a descendant of those men and women. Sending everyone in NZ mourning today, a big hug ❤️

LifeIsToughMate · 21/03/2019 23:06

*Yes it’s making me feel odd too. I’m trying to be generous and think it’s to make the appearance of a woman in hijab less scary or strange to others. I’m completely against the practice though. I’m not sure she should of done that.

Anyway... I’m still waiting for other Kiwis to support the idea of Parihaka Day... they’ll accept hijab but not Māori culture... says it all.*

I’m sorry Jessica, you claimed that as a indigenous kiwi it is rude that I call you out for derailing.

As a Muslim woman, wearing the hijab, I think it is rude that you are using a situation that quite clearly was a huge hate crime against the Islamic faith, to raise awareness about another issue that matters to YOU. Yes the issue you are referring to is relevant, but it’s not the main issue.

I consider it rude and insensitive that you shall think that you can use your voice at a time like this to share your opinion about the hijab. And to campaign for Māori culture regardless of how significant it is and regardless of my respect for that culture.

This was a huge hate crime against the Muslim faith. A lot of Muslims are being targeted. Yes this manifesto was against immigration and non-whites but he clarified very much that he targeted Muslims because they’re more visible and hated. And so he did. And the blood shed was Muslim. And the rest of the Muslim community is suffering from the inspired attack’s.

So I think i would like to point out, that you don’t represent me in this situation. You are sounding extremely insensitive as you post and your enthusiasm is misplaced. your empathy is clearly in the wrong place. And it’s frankly rude to ride on the wave of sorrow of others to achieve your own ends.

There is no expectation for anyone to wear hijab in support, but clearly the gesture was to show Muslim women that extra bit of empathy and solidarity. While your feminist views are valid to you, but this is not the time to be airing them and not on this thread which quite clearly is a place for Muslim women in this forum to be attending. A lot of Muslim women like myself who are hoping to find comments which make them not second doubt how much they’re accepted by society despite all the hate crimes.

I did find it extremely disheartening at how you excitedly used this event to start campaigning for those who want to study Māori. I admit I didn’t know much about Māori people and I was deeply fascinated and learnt about them because of you. I did appreciate that. But it did make me feel like the lives of the many people who died was a secondary focus. at a time when the focus should be on the victims and what They stood for...

What we really need to be addressing in this thread is islamophobia... and seeing how you mentioned your opinion that you think people should learn about Muslims more before they’re “afraid” of them... I feel like you aren’t demonstrating that, you are confirming your sympathy with Islamophobia.. at a time when your sympathy should be with the victims.

The women wearing hijab in solidarity wasn’t to show people that they shouldn’t be “scared” of muslim... we aren’t animals in a zoo... seeing how many Muslims are in Australia and New Zealand I think this argument is frankly outdated. And in fact, this argument is not for the moment in time when 50 Muslims have lost their lives in the most vulnerable way possible.

Wearing the hijab was just visible solidarity with the Muslim people to show Them that they shouldn’t be scared of their surrounding. That their appearance doesn’t mean they’re not accepted... and in fact, it went a long way. I’m cringing at how self-centred it is to think that this event was about making “everyone else” feel ok aside from the victims. Further dehumanising what should be the main focus.

I don’t think anyone was worried about how you saw it. Because quite rightly, the focus right now is on the Muslim community affected by this. And how they see it.

Yes you are indigenous, but you didn’t lose a life. And your sacred place wasn’t attacked... yes this happened in your country but you are outnumbered by those who show greater empathy than you do right now and so you don’t represent.

I’m quite astounded that given the percentage of Muslims living in your country that you and the pp after you refer to us as the “other” in a dehumanising way , at a situation like this.

You are free to believe about the hijab what you may, but I think this thread is important to people like me.. and I think you should respect that you should maintain the focus and sensitivity which is adequate to the situation.

So please, don’t speak on my behalf and on the behalf of my dead brethren.. and on behalf of all those Muslims who are currently being targeted as inspired by this terrorist.

Make your own thread about Māori people and link it here if you may, I am interested in your heritage and so should many others. But It’s not here that such discussion should take place - if you have respect .

Eketahuna · 21/03/2019 23:38

With respect, I think Jessica has every right to talk about Parihaka in this context. We are having a national conversation around racism in NZ which has been sparked by this event, and race relations between Māori and Pākehā have been contentious ever since colonisation began here.

"Yes you are indigenous, but you didn’t lose a life. And your sacred place wasn’t attacked"

This statement shows YOUR ignorance about NZ history and the meaning of Parihaka Day.

I have seen many perspectives on the wearing of hijabs as a symbol of support - not all Muslim women in NZ support it.

www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111473440/headscarves-movement-means-well-but-it-is-cheap-tokenism

LifeIsToughMate · 21/03/2019 23:54

Eketahuna.. my previous post extends to yourself too. Your post was equally disrespectful.

Eketahuna · 21/03/2019 23:56

I'm sorry you feel that way. No offence was intended. I just wanted to defend a Māori woman's right to speak about racism in Aotearoa.

LifeIsToughMate · 22/03/2019 00:04

This statement shows YOUR ignorance about NZ history and the meaning of Parihaka Day.

Well, I’m quite clearly referring to that the Māori people hadn’t lost lives in this tragic event, and it wasn’t their sacred place in this event.. and if you were going to bring your campaign alongside the main tragedy that has just happened, at least respect the main event by not throwing insensitive opinions in a sensitive time like this.

You are defending a Maori woman’s right to speak about racism, I’m defending the rights of 50 dead Muslims ans 20 injured who wouldn’t appreciate you using their death as a reason to air out unwelcomed opinions about practices of their faith.

Clearly, you lost focus here.

Eketahuna · 22/03/2019 00:34

I don't think it's a mutually exclusive conversation. White supremacy is at the core of islamophobia and anti-Māori racism in this country. Recognising that is not islamophobic or in any way denying the horror of what has happened to the Muslim community here.

Eketahuna · 22/03/2019 01:08

I do apologise for my statement about you being ignorant though. That was rude and unnecessary.

Placebogirl · 22/03/2019 01:17

I am so relieved to find this thread saying so much of what I have felt in the wake of these attacks. I was far from home when they happened, awoken by a text message at 137AM in a country so far from NZ that you're on your way back when you get there. I'm glad to see the attacks being tied to the racism in NZ, and a complete absence of "this is not NZ" commentary.

Having grown up in rural NZ, I can see an argument for farmers having rifles, and hunters whose profession is pest control, but actually there is no call for recreational hunting in NZ, and a pretty good argument against it--for example the woman killed outside Turangi 7 years ago by a 'recreational hunter' spotlighting illegally. That particular male terrorist argued that because it was an accident he shouldn't serve jail time.

@LifeIsToughMate thank you for your commentary regarding the use of the hijab. I wondered how it was being perceived by those in the Muslim community, as you are the folks whose views matter most on this issue right now.

On another note, can I say how pissed off I am that the international media is centring Ardern's leadership in discussions of this tragedy? Yeah, she's doing a great job, but this bloody isn't about her. It's about a community attacked by a white male terrorist while they were at prayer, and that is fucking abhorrent.

Illyria47 · 22/03/2019 05:56
This is the vigil in Dunedin last night. I wasn't able to go but Otepoti did. The voice is of the young man who sang the prayers at sunset.
Yeahnahyeah · 22/03/2019 06:08

Can I just say.... Male pattern violence.

OP posts:
JessicaWakefieldSVH · 22/03/2019 06:49

Can I just say.... Male pattern violence

Yes. Keep saying it. I am.
Last year 15 women were murdered in New Zealand. Only one had a public apology from our PM and vigils all over the country.
DV disproportionately affects Māori women, who is having vigils for them?

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 22/03/2019 06:59

Yes you are indigenous, but you didn’t lose a life. And your sacred place wasn’t attacked... yes this happened in your country but you are outnumbered by those who show greater empathy than you do right now and so you don’t represent.

Who the hell are you to tell me when to speak and what to speak about? Wtf? How dare you. Yet again, someone is telling an indigenous person what to speak about and when. THIS WAS WHITE SUPREMACY. That is what it was. And yes, male violence.
Don’t you fucking dare tell me I don’t have empathy when it is YOU who shows none. 15 women were murdered last year. 15. I have lost MANY people. You have no fucking clue. Your comment is the one that is insensitive and I will not be told by you or anyone else what to say or when. Do you know how enraging it is for my people and our suffering to be ignored while white saviours rush to support a new one? I’ll say what the hell I like about hijab. MUSLIM WOMEN ARE SAYING IT TOO. This is so fucking typical. Do you know how many times Māori get told to shut up? People are hurting, and that includes Māori. Don’t you dare tell an indigenous person they don’t know what they’re talking about or that they don’t ‘represent’ anyone. Oh I know my country doesn’t care about us you racist person, I know exactly how many of us are left and that we are a minority.

My sympathy is with all victims, ALL of them. I am not the only one talking about it either.

Fucking unbelievable.

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