WTAF is wrong with West Yorkshire Police?

[Bluestitch]

Don't know if anybody has posted this already, lovely bit of victim blaming there. I'm not even surprised anymore.

mobile.twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton/status/1105821309701894145

I do not agree with the narratives here that posit that providing children with education warning them about risks from predators is victim blaming.

Surely we must do whatever we can to protect children from abuse.

There may be an inherent risk that narratives could be victim blaming and we should be aware of that and avoid it.

Punishing perpetrators and educating vulnerable minors are not mutually exclusive surely?

It's all very well saying Using BETTER language, BETTER messages. Place the blame where it belongs, educate the potential perpetrators, show support to victims..., which I agree with 100%, but in practical terms how do we get that message out there? I'm not the police force, I don't run an advertising agency, I'm not in charge of a school, I'm not a politician, and I'm not an experienced activist. If you have more experience and ideas about how we could do this - that is, how ordinary people like me could make a real change, I'd like to hear them. That's what I was looking for"

this

I would be very interested in thinking creatively about how to better protect children and vulnerable adults from abuse and exploitation.

I would be interested in people's thoughts on this video

Thanks for your thoughtful posts on this hoodathunkit. It's really informative to see the perspective of someone who's 'been there'. Most of us are just armchair theorists, and some, like me, have had really very privileged and comfortable lives. Something that we're not always aware of until we are shown the experiences of others.

I do not agree with the narratives here that posit that providing children with education warning them about risks from predators is victim blaming.

This is really what I've been saying all through this thread. And working towards a better world where men no longer rape and exploit women doesn't help the women and girls who are being raped and exploited right now. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be working towards a better society, just that such a thing won't happen overnight, and in the meantime more girls and women will suffer. We should be finding a way to help girls and women who need that help right now, as well as working towards a better world where men cease to rape and exploit women and girls.

I feel I'm being overly repetitive in an effort not to be misunderstood yet again.

Well I, with a completely different view to the two of you, have not had a privileged life and was out in my own when a teenager. Please do not assume ‘most of us’ are armchair theorists. I’m a victim of gang rape by teens and was abused by my father. Don’t make assumptions about contributors.

And yes, you are being over repetitive.

Sorry Jessica, I should have said 'some of us', not 'most'. I realised that after posting. My recognition of how comfortable my own life has been has been partly informed by things I have read on MN, including this thread.

Sorry about the repetition. That was in response to the poster who said that my meaning was unclear in some of my posts, and that I hadn't said things that I had said in earlier posts.

You say you have a different view, but surely we can all agree about this:

Surely we must do whatever we can to protect children from abuse.

How we go about doing this is the only real question.

This is about the specific poster. It’s about how language impacts victims and public attitudes. If we can do better, we should.

Well I, with a completely different view to the two of you, have not had a privileged life and was out in my own when a teenager. Please do not assume ‘most of us’ are armchair theorists. I’m a victim of gang rape by teens and was abused by my father. Don’t make assumptions about contributors.

I am not aware that I had made assumptions about anyone posting here.

You read my posts and think I had a privileged life? Really?

I do not consider that the fact I survived grooming, trafficking, rape etc. means that I should have the last word on this subject.

I am always interested to think about issues and discuss things with others.

I would hope that we are all open to thinking and reflecting upon these sensitive issues regardless of whatever traumas we have endured.

JessicaWakefieldSVH

I am sorry that you endured terrible things. I did too, some things I endured were the same as you, some different.

While I think it is always important to listen to victims and survivors I feel strongly that personal narratives should be used to assist with thinking about sensitive and difficult subjects, rather than to police and prevent thinking.

I hope that we can continue to think about these issues together in a respectful way.

hoodathunkit
I would of thought it obvious I was responding to OldCrone considering I used their words.
I wasn’t responding to you. I said not one thing about you or anyone else being privileged. So I really don’t know what the hell your comment is about or why it’s directed at me

rather than to police and prevent thinking.

Nobody policed your thinking or anyone else’s. It’s an exchange of opinions, OldCrone made assumptions about others, I objected, that clarified. Nobody prevents anyone else from ‘thinking’

Most of us are just armchair theorists, and some, like me, have had really very privileged and comfortable lives

These are OldCrones words which I responded to. I really thought it was obvious what I was responding to, but for clarity, there it is. I objected to myself being lumped in as privileged. Not that you were!

I would of thought it obvious I was responding to OldCrone considering I used their words. I wasn’t responding to you. I said not one thing about you or anyone else being privileged. So I really don’t know what the hell your comment is about or why it’s directed at me

If you read the thread you will be able to see why I misunderstood who you were replying to. You referred to the "two of you" and OldCrone and I were agreeing with one another so it was not unreasonable to deduce that you were referring to two people who were in agreement.

Thank you for the clarification though, I appreciate it

I really don't want a fight with anyone, I would rather we were all kind to each other as I think we all want the same thing, to protect the vulnerable from harm

"how ordinary people like me could make a real change, I'd like to hear them. That's what I was looking for"

challenge ads & campaigns like the one under discussion

Pull up the boys and men (or even girls and women sadly misogyny and victim blaming isn't restricted to males) in your own life if they make inappropriate comments

Raise such issues with your politicians from councillor up to mp

Use sm to challenge public figures who make inappropriate comments

Use your vote to vote for politicians who support victims and women generally

Support charities - doesn't have to be with money - who are working to change this

Raise awareness generally within your own circle, speak out

"I do not agree with the narratives here that posit that providing children with education warning them about risks from predators is victim blaming." NOBODY has said that educating children as to the risks is victim blaming!

Those of us arguing against the ad are saying HOW this ad attempts to go about it is victim blaming. Calling victims party ANIMALS, saying if they don't avoid the risks they may "pay the price" this has all been said several times already.

Tone is everything!

No privileged life here either, home was violent, unpredictable and sexually abusive. Have also had 2 major but not quite rape sexual assaults outside of that situation too. So not an "armchair theorist" either.

We can educate without blaming and we should be - that absolutely could change overnight, attitudes will of course take much longer unfortunately

Those of us arguing against the ad are saying HOW this ad attempts to go about it is victim blaming. Calling victims party ANIMALS, saying if they don't avoid the risks they may "pay the price" this has all been said several times already

^ this

Those of us arguing against the ad are saying HOW this ad attempts to go about it is victim blaming.

Yes, in my replies I have agreed that the "price to be paid" narrative is problematic and can be victim blaming, however it resonates with issues that police dealing with grooming / trafficking networks deal with on a day to day basis, as I described in an earlier post.

I suspect that part of the problem is that law enforcement are dealing with a massive problem and they have identified, quite correctly, that a central aspect of grooming for CSA is gift giving that later is used to coerce kids into CSA using a narrative re debts that need to be paid.

The police think that the answer is to educate kids about this and make a bot of a dog's breakfast of it.

Calling victims party ANIMALS, saying if they don't avoid the risks they may "pay the price" this has all been said several times already.

Surely it is the perpetrators who are the "animals" in the narrative? Actually this is probably where the cops are going wrong - I think the inference is "party animals may just be predatory beasts" but it far from clear and could be interpreted as girls being equated with animals.

Tone is everything!

agreed

This explains a lot

Indeed.

Zero tolerance to male violence against women and girls? No?

In any of its guises.

Zero tolerance to violence against anyone

Yes obviously, but as there is a specific problem with male violence against women and girls for different reasons to male on male violence, and that women are considered to be a disadvantaged class, it would be nice for once for them to say this. But they're a bunch of misogynists, so they won't.

They're happy enough to single out transphobia for special attention.

The ongoing misogyny of WYP is a sight to behold. Yet again they seem to view rape victims as a difficulty to deal with, rather than realising that their job is to deal with and stop rapists.

If they really wanted to prevent grooming gangs raping girls at house parties, one of the things they could do would be a poster campaign along the lines of: "Grooming gangs are operating at house parties in this area. If you're at a house party and something doesn't feel right, you can rely on us to come collect you no questions asked, even if you've been drinking underage or doing drugs. YOUR SAFETY IS OUR PRIORITY."

Hell it may take a bit of funding but apparently WYP have quite a lot of it to spare.

Or they could even just go for a campaign teaching girls to assert their boundaries. "If someone's making you uncomfortable, it's okay to leave or move, even if you feel like it may be rude. Trust your gut. You don't have to be polite to creeps." But we all know why they won't go for that one...

Inspector David Harland

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3488261-The-Financial-Juggernaut-that-is-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3514190-Ruth-Hunt-is-leaving-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3069102-Stonewall-really-are-throwing-women-udner-the-bus-arent-they-sad

Oh ffs! Though I shouldn't be surprised really.

The "transphobia" bollocks is so often now barely disguised misogyny.

Wyp really need to get their priorities right!

I'm with posters saying an ad campaign either needs to target perpetrators or ensure victims come forward (though tbh wyp have an APPALLING record on how they've treated disclosing victims too!)

At this point I'm thinking they need to be thoroughly investigated by an external force and many sackings need to happen - get rid of the rot!!

to anyone effected by this.

I think the price to be paid is because of groomers creating a fake debt based on the free stuff they give out it is giving far too much credit to wyp and the poster designer. Plus it’s a bit too nuanced for 12-15 year old girls to pick up from a couple of sentences.

How about putting some up in taxi ranks and takeaways in various languages saying:

Giving children free alcohol, drugs, food and goods in order to pretend that you like them so you can rape them is a crime.
Pretending to be a child’s boyfriend and then abusing them is a crime
Passing children around groups of men so they can be abused and raped is a crime
Having sex with under 16s is a crime
If you do these things you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
All accusations of grooming, rape and abuse of children will be taken seriously and investigated fully.

Maybe not as catchy as ‘party animals pay the price’ but it’s a start.