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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

WTAF is wrong with West Yorkshire Police?

247 replies

Bluestitch · 13/03/2019 23:54

Don't know if anybody has posted this already, lovely bit of victim blaming there. I'm not even surprised anymore.

mobile.twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton/status/1105821309701894145

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Ereshkigal · 15/03/2019 21:16

Or they could even just go for a campaign teaching girls to assert their boundaries. "If someone's making you uncomfortable, it's okay to leave or move, even if you feel like it may be rude. Trust your gut. You don't have to be polite to creeps." But we all know why they won't go for that one...

This

Changer1234 · 16/03/2019 08:40

I work for WYP and I am truly appalled by the language and inferences displayed in this poster. It just reassures me that leaving the shit show will be the best idea.

LangCleg · 16/03/2019 09:50

How about putting some up in taxi ranks and takeaways in various languages

Including English!

This is excellent advice because employment patterns have as much to do with certain forms of offending as the much-more discussed race and religion. Abusive men exist within all demographics of men and abusive men gravitate towards jobs and hobbies that provide opportunity.

jellyfrizz · 16/03/2019 09:58

Or they could even just go for a campaign teaching girls to assert their boundaries. "If someone's making you uncomfortable, it's okay to leave or move, even if you feel like it may be rude. Trust your gut. You don't have to be polite to creeps."

^^ This. So much coercion relies on socialization.

theOtherPamAyres · 16/03/2019 10:29

Why do my senses go on high alert when I see that a police officer is a Stonewall Role Model? Why am I wary of Forces that are Stonewall Champions?

It's because (as someone pointed out on Twitter, in reply to Inspector David Harland of West Yorkshire Police) I distrust the Brotherhood, The Masons, the Priesthood and every other society of men that bands together to watch each others backs.

Being a mason is now seen as incompatible with being a police officer, because of the risk of partiality. So they are not called masons anymore in West Yorkshire - they are gay male officers, working on behalf of trans validation activists.

twitter.com/WYPDavidHarland/status/1106142178475151360

Changer1234 · 16/03/2019 10:45

Harland causes a lot of friction anyway - being a direct entry inspector he’s not been through the ranks.

hoodathunkit · 18/03/2019 09:33

I think the price to be paid is because of groomers creating a fake debt based on the free stuff they give out it is giving far too much credit to wyp and the poster designer. Plus it’s a bit too nuanced for 12-15 year old girls to pick up from a couple of sentences.

You may be right. I agree that it's not the most helpful or effective message to convey to kids at risk of abuse and exploitation.

It is a message that is relevant to all sections of society, especially elders on the internet. I can imagine how the cops thought it might be a good idea though.

How about putting some up in taxi ranks and takeaways in various languages saying:

Giving children free alcohol, drugs, food and goods in order to pretend that you like them so you can rape them is a crime.
Pretending to be a child’s boyfriend and then abusing them is a crime
Passing children around groups of men so they can be abused and raped is a crime
Having sex with under 16s is a crime
If you do these things you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
All accusations of grooming, rape and abuse of children will be taken seriously and investigated fully.

Maybe not as catchy as ‘party animals pay the price’ but it’s a start.

I think that these are important messages.

Are minicab drivers subject to licensing? If so then maybe as part of the licensing process they should receive training on this issue?

LangCleg · 18/03/2019 09:51

Are minicab drivers subject to licensing? If so then maybe as part of the licensing process they should receive training on this issue?

Licensing varies between LAs.

One of the most positive moves to come out of the grooming scandals is a proposal to require all private hire drivers to have enhanced DBS checks.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47205790

hoodathunkit · 18/03/2019 10:04

Thanks for the helpful link LangCleg

CRB / enhanced disclosure checks are an important first step but I have problems with them.

They will only flag a person if they have intel or a prior conviction re that person. More problematically, these checks are used frequently to deflect concerns. "S/he has a CRB check and so cannot be a threat to women / children” are words I have heard many times when attempting to alert organisations about predators in their midst.

Obviously such checks are not meant to act as a protective shield around perpetrators but they are used frequently in exactly that way in my experience.

Re David Harland

I do not have a problem with him stating that he is against transphobia

I am horrified at the violent antics of TRA activists, however I would not wish any human being to suffer violence and to not have recourse to the law.

I think that the violent TRAs are hurting not just women but intersex people and people who do not, for whatever reason, conform to the binary divisions of male and female and who are not experiencing / channeling AGP.

If however Harland is interpreting a GC attitude as transphobic violence, then I have a serious problem with him.

I am appalled by the various people getting visits from the police because of GC posts on the internet. This is an outrageous abuse of power IMO.

I do not comprehend the logic by which a woman's identity can be erased by the word "cis" and this is fine and dandy but a person not accepting that a man can transform into a woman via surgery is violence against trans women.

R0wantrees · 18/03/2019 15:09

Re David Harland

I do not have a problem with him stating that he is against transphobia

The question is how Inspector Harland is defining this.
He is a Stonewall Champion.
Stonewall's definition of 'transphobia':

'TRANSPHOBIA
The fear or dislike of someone based on the fact they are trans, including the denial/refusal to accept their gender identity.'

That all people have a 'Gender Identity' is an ideological belief many do not share.
This is not about fear, dislike, hatred, bigotry etc of individuals.

hoodathunkit · 18/03/2019 15:27

R0wantrees

Thanks for the clarification

I can see how that can be problematic to say the least

If one accepts that a denial of a trans person's gender identity / misnaming as violence or hate speech against TRAs, then why cannot these woke people in authority understand that insisting that women use the prefix “cis” is an act of violence against women?

I am not arguing that either is violence, at least not by my understanding. I am really angry to be told to use the prefix "cis" and I will not use it. I can understand that a trans woman may not want to use the prefix "trans" and may desire very much to simply be a woman.

I want the moon on a stick.

It is outrageous that the police are squandering precious resources on GC tweets and posts on the internet. Threats of violence or actual physical violence I can understand, but not gender critical or gender questioning posts surely?

I am working on a piece about how the policing of language in the TRA narrative is in fact an attack on thinking. To use a metaphor, if our collective minds are like a computer network, to adopt unquestioningly the language of the TRA movement is to permit a virus to infect our system.

I used to be a great supporter of Stonewall back in the day, it is depressing to witness how it has become compromised by TRAs and groupthink.

OldCrone · 18/03/2019 15:37

'TRANSPHOBIA
The fear or dislike of someone based on the fact they are trans, including the denial/refusal to accept their gender identity.'

That all people have a 'Gender Identity' is an ideological belief many do not share.

That's a bit like Islamophobia being defined as 'The fear or dislike of someone based on the fact that they are Muslim, including the denial/refusal to accept that the Koran is the word of God.'

Not quite the same thing, but a similar demand that everyone should share certain beliefs. I don't want to live in a theocracy where people can demand that I hold certain unproven faith-based beliefs.

I respect other people's rights to have a 'gender identity' if it is something that they believe in, just as I respect their right to believe in God. Or to believe in a flat earth, astrology or homeopathy. They should not have the right to demand that I also believe in such things.

R0wantrees · 18/03/2019 16:18

If one accepts that a denial of a trans person's gender identity / misnaming as violence or hate speech against TRAs, then why cannot these woke people in authority understand that insisting that women use the prefix “cis” is an act of violence against women?

Absolutely.

Furthermore as discussed in this BMJ letter, it is recognised that some males have autogynaphillia, are 'cross-dressers' etc and also identify as transgender as well as there being other potential factors involved.

Published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

[[open access link here:
www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490.full?ijkey=6lX93kQA0lz5YoB&keytype=ref]]

Discussed in article,
'The Elephant In The Room'
Sue Donym
concludes,
"Autogynephilia is a weird concept. It can be inaccessible. But it needs to be discussed in the LGBT community, and openly. Not talking about it is causing way too much damage — we have had our organizations taken over, our spaces colonized, and our sexuality redefined. Thanks to these men, you can no longer say ‘I am, gay, meaning exclusively same-sex attracted’ without being labelled a TERF. That’s not a good thing.

Dancing around the subject isn’t helpful. While the ultimate result of autogynephilia is homophobic rhetoric, is important to remember that a sexual fantasy, not homophobia, motivates such rhetoric. That is the root cause of the problem.

Worse is the effect on autogynephiles themselves. ‘Transgender’ is not an umbrella. It is a term that erases the very different motivations and causes of various forms of gender dysphoria. It does people who claim the label absolutely no favors. The original inclusion of the ‘T’ was designed for homosexual transsexuals, and include them with other same-sex attracted individuals. It was not designed to include autogynephiles, who are heterosexual males, or ‘queer’ individuals who are heterosexual but believe dying their hair some variation of neon should mean they are included. Making ‘transgender’ an umbrella not only erases the very different causes and struggles associated with homosexual transsexuality, it also obscures the causes of, and struggles associated with autogynephilia. Autogynephilia is not a condition I would wish on anyone. It is a unique, somewhat bizarre struggle, and reading through many of the accounts of it was quite sad. It can make its sufferers lonely and unable to connect with intimate partners. But enabling it, and on a grand scale, has caused immense damage to homosexuals, particularly lesbians, who have lost almost all their spaces and communities to colonization.

Please discuss the elephant."

medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-elephant-in-the-room-dc822144a81b

R0wantrees · 18/03/2019 16:21

apologies for scrambling the link to BMJ letter above:
open access link here:
www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490.full?ijkey=6lX93kQA0lz5YoB&keytype=ref

TurboTeddy · 18/03/2019 17:25

Here are a couple of articles about West Yorkshire Police. I had no idea of their failings around the Saville case.

uncommongroundmedia.com/west-yorkshire-police-allies-convenience/

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/jimmy-savile/10389041/How-far-did-police-go-to-protect-Jimmy-Savile.html

Graphista · 18/03/2019 20:10

Are you really shocked re Savile? I'm not.

Even having a brother & friends in the police who I believe in wholeheartedly, I firmly believe the main reason police didn't go after Savile at the time is he had evidence of their own similar crimes.

The Police as an organisation aren't immune from being infiltrated by rapists and nonces.

What's hugely disappointing is that there's NEVER been a full and frank investigation into those that protected him but then it's been rumoured this is because those not only who knew what he was like but also partook in his offences reach into the highest echelons of our society it's utterly sickening.

What's infuriating is the knowledge there never will be. We'll never know the full truth and those victims will never get justice.

In terms of wyp seems to me there needs to be a scorched earth policy applies and build the force again from the ground up, the rot there is too far gone for them to do anything else.

TurboTeddy · 18/03/2019 20:24

Not shocked, sadly beyond shockable now! I was just unaware that WYP were implicated in protecting him.

Graphista · 18/03/2019 23:04

That surprises me that people are unaware even now of just how protected he was

Binglebong · 22/03/2019 22:56

WYP's chief constable has resigned/retired. Any connection? twitter.com/WestYorksPolice/status/1109024688813076481?s=19

Graphista · 23/03/2019 05:24

Doubtful, he's not retiring particularly early.

More to the point who the hells gonna replace him?

RainbowWaffles · 23/03/2019 05:57

I don’t like the ‘price you pay’ wording, however i don’t object to the sentiment. It isn’t victim blaming to give women advice to keep themselves safe. I imagine this public information initiative was in response to an issue ie there must have been a series of instances where similar things had happened. I recall going to random parties alone a couple of times as a teenager and it always ended up being a bit dodgy. As pp have said, you think you are invincible. Like it or not, men inviting girls alone to an isolated location with the offer of intoxicants etc is rarely a benevolent act. They aren’t saying don’t go to parties with friends or don’t go to the house of someone you know to a party. It seems to me this is just to raise awareness and the ‘party animal’ style is deliberately to catch the attention of teenagers.

I also recall sering numerous tv adverts years ago aimed at men about what might be rape at a party. The message was clearly ‘don’t rape’, showing them what is and isn’t consent. So this type of campaign has also happened.

I have seen numerous campaigns advising people how to keep their houses safe and avoid being victims of burglary- keep windows locked, leave a light on etc. Same with robbery, avoid walking in remote places alone at night etc. Many campaigns to show children how to stay safe online and not talk to strangers etc.

If you are a man who has in mind they want to rape/ burgle/ rob someone, a poster saying don’t be a rapist/ burglar/ paedo or whatever is unlikely to change your mind. Warning people about keeping yourself safe might. That isn’t to say it is your fault if something happens to you, it is always the fault of the offender.

Skittlesss · 23/03/2019 07:25

*Doubtful, he's not retiring particularly early.

More to the point who the hells gonna replace him?*

He’s a she Grin, but yes she’s done 32 years and battled breast cancer in the past, so hopefully the new “health concerns” she’s spoken about aren’t too serious.

I hope they get someone capable. The current temp chief is nice, but it doesn’t always fall that it goes to them.

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