4thWaveNow has some incredibly disturbing stuff from Facebook

[GabrielleNelson]

twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/status/1104427039082405888

This one is a tweet with screenshots of 'packers', i.e. plastic penises, for girls under 5 who identify as boys to wear in their pants. (Yes, you read that right. I'd say a trans 3yo is like a vegan cat. We all know who's made that call.)

That led a concerned parent to send them a lot of screenshots from a Facebook group for affirming parents of trans children. First batch are about packers, starting here. twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/status/1104778089974980609

Second batch are about underwear for biological boys designed to minimise bulges in the genital area. (So the opposite of the above.) twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/status/1105542499483955200

Third batch are about binders being worn by biological girls and causing serious respiratory issues. twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/status/1105585448657801217

The whole thing is just sickening. Why isn't anyone sane in authority trying to re-assert normality and put the health and wellbeing of these confused children and teenagers first?

God forbid the UK ever goes the same way.

Totally get it that individual parents feel stuck between a rock and a hard place on this and they will do anything to help their kids. Also that other parents have mental health problems of their own and are abusive. Which is usually when we look to health professionals and peer support of voluntary organisations to help.

But in this case: because narcissistic boundary erasing TRAs seem to be running all the peer support and voluntary organisations, and the TRAs are putting pressure on NHS health professionals (a line of argument which is in turn supported by other well meaning professionals who have been taken in by misrepresentation of what the law demands or allows, or just want to be ‘woke’) .. now the NHS professionals, who should be able to support and treat children and anyone who needs mental health support, also feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. So they start ‘affirmative’ practice.

And private sector charlatans prescribe affirmatively while taking no overall responsibility for the children’s health, simply because they can make money out of it. NHS will pick up the tab later.

We can’t leave the care of kids and support of parents to Facebook groups and political activists. The NHS needs to be resourced to provide reliable timely evidence based professional support.

I think we need to write to MPs presenting the evidence we have been discussing on here for the past few years in relation to children (take your pick- there’s all too much of it) asking them to demand a Health select committee inquiry into what is going on in the care and support of children. This will recommend proper mental health support for children and parents.

After that Inquiry reports and MPs have considered what has emerged, (very important in itself) then the government (the department of Health) then need to bring forward for debate in Parliament, new regulatory powers to provide case by case regulatory oversight of doctors prescribing medical hormonal or surgical interventions on any child and young person under 25.

IANAL but I would assume that current law would have measures to deal with sexualisation of small children by mucking about with their genitalia using duct tape or making them wear prosthetic penises (Jesus Christ- horrible writing that)- but if there isn’t that should be rolled into these powers too.

We need sunlight and legal powers, urgently. MPs will get this. A scandal is building and MPs will not want to be on the wrong side of it.

ChattyLion great post.

I will write to my MP about this. I’ve not over-pestered her as she is on side and I wanted to wait until it was really important before I put pressure on her to get something done - this is the most important thing out of all of this sorry mess. I will not stand by while children are abused like this. What about a new thread with some ideas of what to include in a letter on this issue?

Good idea. I met my MP a while back and wasn't greatly impressed as she didn't seem to get it fully. However, I would hope that another letter citing the recent furore over sport and spelling out the safeguarding issues here for children and vulnerable adults might perhaps make a difference. I don't know if there's any point in rushing to do it this weekend as Brexit is going to be preoccupying all MPs to the exclusion of everything else for the next few days/weeks. But soon.

Yes, I am quite sure the vast majority of parents abusing their kids like this don't have a clue that's what they're doing. The 'professionals' are absolutely culpable.

But I don't actually think most abusive parents are consciously abusive. I think it probably a rare psychopathic parent that abuses their child like this consciously - the vast majority of parents who are doing this are not twisting their villainous moustaches as they deliberate choose to harm their kids.

The parents who kill their babies by feeding them home made formula milk which is just water, flour and grpund ip vitamin pills aren't doing it because they are villains, they believe they are doing their best. They are misguided and wrong, and they are abusers and must be stopped.

Agree with Captain.
Also, the parents who say they are "Led by the child" in facilitating transition are probably just seizing on normal
child behaviour such as interest in stereotypically opposite gender clothing/toys/interests, confusing third person pronouns as "signs" their child is trans and overlooking all the "normal" gender behaviours- confirmation bias in other words.
It's totes Munchausen's by proxy and/or competitively woke parenting.
None of my kids were particularly aware of differences between boys and girls until they went to school. Then from the age of about 6 upwards they went through a phase of "hating" the other sex and primarily forming friendship group with their own sex at school. I suspect that any kids who don't fit that pattern, don't fit into the same-sex friendship groups at that age and don't go through that intense rejection of the other sex could easily be picked off as gender non conforming and therefore trans. When they are actually just kids but don't quite fit the social norm.

twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/status/1106228663400521729

More madness.

Where has this idea of being 'led by the child' come from? Children should be protected by their parents from doing things that they don't have the maturity needed to make a rational decision.

And the BBC is posting nice affirming articles about that poor Autumn who appears to be providing a career path for his mother

Was there a thread about Autumn? Because I read that article and was horrified. Nice that the mother is writing a book about what a great person she is though. And the make up!

Thread here, Haworthia.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3524640-Bloody-hell-BBC

Thanks @OldCrone I should have searched myself I did look for a thread when I first read the article and didn’t find one. Guess I was too quick off the mark!

I suspect there are very astute lawyers in America, Canada and probably the UK too watching all this and planning how they are going to make their millions from the lawsuits that will be inevitable in 20-30 years time when these poor children are adults and realise what has been done to them.

I do hope that at some point as a nation we are going to be collectively appalled that this was allowed to happen and I really hope that day comes sooner rather than later. Applause to those who are exposing this.

NRFT but, why mothers? Imo motherhood has been fetished so much in the last 15 or so years. Women seem to angst over attachment/working/baby led weaning/breastfeeding/schools and on and on. Motherhood as vocation, and you mustn't make mistakes because it will fuck up the children ! Maybe that leads mothers to make utterly hysterical decisions? (And yes I do know the origin of hysterical).
Personally I think parents who make money off their kids on you tube should be prosecuted so you can imagine what i think of people who buy 3 year olds packers and feed them hormones..

To be fair I think it's a bit more nuanced than "mothers are behind transing children"

When you look at prominent trans activists like Jackie Green and Paris Lees, their stories are almost identical that the father in their life abandoned them as a child for being gender non conforming. Both talk/cry emotionally about having their "girly" toys and clothes thrown away by dad as a child.
Aimee Chanellor, undeniably influenced by an abusive father.
In all cases it is reported the father then wholeheartedly accepted that they really had a girl trapped in a boys body and accepted their child again rather than accept having a gnc child.

I feel as though (as unlikeable a character Susie Green is) the mothers of these boys were desperately trying to help them in the way they truly believed was best.

Father's influence seems to be brushed under the carpet in many cases of trans children as the mother is always on the front line in a child's upbringing.

This sounds mean, that isn’t my intention, but whenever I have seen mothers with tiny “trans” children being interviewed on tv, i am struck by the general lack of intelligence. There isn’t much critical thought, or depth. They have that culty blankness, the trotting out of the same lines. I wonder whether many of these mothers are fairly gullible ? Less likely to question, or to have strong opinions ?
There is also the prevailing culture, either very macho, as in Yorkshire, or extremely liberal (Brighton) , which perhaps influences parents generally.
I have been mulling it over today, as a girl in dds class, aged 15, has suddenly declared she is trans. She is autistic, dd thinks possibly she is lesbian. She is going to start wearing a binder apparently. I find it absolutely heartbreaking. Dd says that she is lovely, and is upset about it.

Totally agree dpwm.

A.C., Paris Lees and Sarah Brown all describe abusive homophobic fathers, mothers who chose to appease the fathers/did not protect their children, and appalling multiple trauma. They all also describe internalized self blame - they were abused because they were trans. Instead of being absolutely perfect children the way they were, and being abused because they had shitty parents.

A.C. was diagnosed as having Oppositional Defiant Disorder as a child. Just reading The Body Keeps the Score, part of which describes ODD as one of the meaningless psych diagnoses used to locate reasons for distress in traumatised children within the children themselves, rather than looking at the multiple external causes of their trauma, often including sexual abuse.

Expressing being trans in a child is a cultural social and psychological response to external factors. There are no 'trans kids.

I know what controls my mother. The power of 'mother's guilt'. The suicide narrative has always been central to her support of the trans stuff.

But it goes way beyond that and that narrative plays into her psyche a lot deeper than out of fear.

And I think her desire to over compensate and 'do the right thing' is definitely there too. She's always been 'overly nice'. I also wonder about her poor relationship with her own mum and how much that affected her.

I don't know if this is different to parents of trans children, but I sort of feel echoes of my mum in those messages.

Those mothers genuinely want to do the right thing I believe. But there's also so much projection in there and insecurity I wonder about what's the deal with their own past. A desire to be loved and needed in a way that's absent?

I don't know. I don't think any of those mothers have intent to harm. If anything it's almost a case of 'loving too much', if that makes sense.

That’s a really interesting point, Red. I recognise that behaviour in a friend of mine whose autistic child identified as trans a few years ago. She’s very much the sole “emotional manager” in her family, for a variety of reasons. Hmm.

It's also worth bearing in mind that most mothers of trandsgender children are not giving interviews on tv or running a YouTube channel about their child's transition; those that do are unlikely to be "typical".

What really strikes me about this whole issue is that nobody is allowed to or is interested in not conforming any more. In my generation fuck that reference make me feel old you could be a bit weird, explore not conforming, and teenage angst was about would I ever have a first kiss or have sex and am I actually attracted to same sex as well as or instead of the opposite. You were straight, gay or bi (or somewhere on a continuum,) and there wasn't really any rush to work out what box you wanted to be in, no rush to adopt a label, unless you wanted to. I thought people like Boy George were a bit weird but Kurt Cobain was cool and I was a bit of a tomboy and the guys in my college wore eyeliner and nobody but nobody blinked or cared.

These 83 recognised genders and the huge explosion of "trans identifying" small children as well as teens and adults just seems to me like a rush to get in a specific box as soon as possible. Where the fuck have any boundaries gone? "Mummy look [tucks penis] I'm a girl ha ha!" " ha ha no darling you're still a boy." "Can I wear a dress today?" "Well sure you can play dress up if you really want to but you're a boy and boys wear trousers. How about your favourite dinosaur dungarees today?"

Attracted to the same sex? You are trans, and denying it means you have ishoos. Not a clear stereotypical female or male? Must be trans. Attracted to the "right" gender but not stereotypically male or female? You're gay trans. Have normal questions about what sex and gender is because you're a child and every child does? Trans and needs medicating, a plastic penis and binder. Having standard teenage angst and are rebelling as you work out who you are? Here, have a label, and may we highly recommend Trans and different pronouns.

Since when has being male or female been such a very tight mold to fit in or reject? Why has being female but preferring comfortable trousers and t-shirts been erased? Male but have some effeminate characteristics, well damn well find your box and get in it, lord knows there are enough boxes now.

It feels like being a lesbian is being erased.

It feels very tight and restrictive - Get In Your Boxes, people.

I'm not Cis, because fuck somebody else giving me a box that I didn't ask for, want or need.

I'm a Woman. A messy, embodied, sacred, womanly woman. If I wear a dress it's with trousers or leggings, because that's what feels comfortable to me. I don't do heels. Often I wear a t shirt, joggers and hoodie, and I rarely do make up, apart from when I want to. I've only ever slept with men but I wouldn't put it past me to go for a woman if it was right to me at the time. I'm probably "gender non-conforming" but I'll raise a big huge FUCK YOU to anybody who tries to put me in a box because I've got no interest in having any label other than "Woman". I don't care what you dress like, who you fuck (as long as it's consensual) and if you do or don't conform to any stereotypes. This to me is perfectly normal and healthy, but it feels very much like all choice, fluidity and right to change your mind and explore, especially as a child or teenager, is being erased. It's not okay to not fit a box any more; all the "Woke" people are doing it. Whereas not long ago all the "Woke" people rejected labels. What. The. Fuck.

I wonder if the tightening of the gender boxes (and all the other identity-boxes) has to do with social media. Far more, and more continuous, reinforcement because of constant conforming-signalling and conformity-checking/policing from your social group, which counteracts any exposure to alternatives and outsider perspectives? Most of it subconscious?

That's an interesting idea. You could be on to something there.

I think the desire to be a social media special person drives it too. Perfectly ordinary heterosexual people are suddenly queer and oppressed.

In a way this is similar to the recent Michael Jackson child abuse revelations.....In those two particular instances the mothers were flattered and groomed by Jackson too. In fact, the abuse would never have been able to happen if the mothers were not on board. The mothers chose not to see what was happening, for their own emotional reasons. In both cases they were a bit like 'Stage Mums' or 'Hockey Moms'. The child is used to further the parents own ambition.

Having a transgender child seems quite fashionable in the U.S - with some big name stars having trans children.

The U.s has long ben a heavily medicalised nation; with drugs and medicines advertised on TV, and with doctors being almost like purveyors of drugs for the big pharmaceuticals. I have an old friend who has long lived in the U.s. Two of her three children are on mood altering medications for supposed mental health conditions.

Read a book recently called " Crazy Like Us" about how mental health conditions are 'exported' from the U.S across the world, into countries and cultures which had never before particularly suffered from these conditions. On top of the drug pushing, there is a whole aid industry and charity sector that is used to enable and further establish the mental health condition 'of the day'.

In those two particular instances the mothers were flattered and groomed by Jackson too. In fact, the abuse would never have been able to happen if the mothers were not on board. The mothers chose not to see what was happening, for their own emotional reasons.

I think it would be quite easy for that to happen, especially if the mothers were fans of his music. There's going to be a certain amount of denial going on, that your idol can't possibly be a bad person.

I think it would be quite easy for that to happen, especially if the mothers were fans of his music. There's going to be a certain amount of denial going on, that your idol can't possibly be a bad person.

The gut instincts are usually right; but in these cases the mothers had to much to lose from halting the whole scenario, and so they chose to over-rule their suspicions and fears. I've seen this before, in the case of a friend who permitted a quite frankly, creepy guy to child mind her young disabled daughter. This creep lived next door with a woman and her child ( not his). But my friend's need for some space and assistance over-ruled any suspicions or concerns she might have had.

In fact she chose to think he was just some lovely guy, who couldn't do wrong....It was clear to me that this was not the case. He made my skin crawl. Why do people choose not to see what is in front of them?