David Lloyd changing room policy in Huffpost

[Dinneratbreadsticks]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-lloyd-trans-access-gym_uk_5c825491e4b0d9361626ec6c

Leading UK gym chain David Lloyd does not permit trans people to use changing rooms in line with the gender they identify with, unless they can produce a gender recognition certificate.

In a HuffPost UK analysis of several national gym chains and their policies on changing rooms – including Nuffield Health, PureGym, Everyone Active, EasyGym, The Gym Group and Virgin Active – David Lloyd was the only one to require this documentation from a trans person wishing to use the changing room for their identified gender.

I do visit a (not DL ) gym quiet late a night, the changing rooms are often empty,

I've no idea how to handle the situation if there's a penis person in there with me, how do I know if they are a benign TW or a voyeuristic man trying it on. This would make me consider swapping to DL when my contract is up.

Male and female are not value judgements. They are just descriptions of the two sexual classes that form humanity as a whole.

When I give blood they have to test it in the females tester

Are there any issues with doing that? I thought women who had been pregnant couldn’t give blood to men? Are there any issues the other way round? Who’s a scientist here? Where’s Babel?

Why are you not male?

I have empathy yes but trans people do not care what you do whilst changing

I think the 41% of trans women prisoners who are sex offenders might beg to differ

Nope they probably don't but how do you identify the trans vs the men who are in there Who are just saying they are trans to go in the Female space.

I’m sorry, the whole GRC thing has lost me. It’s so complicated. Is it the case that:

1. DL can lawfully operate a policy of having female changing rooms open only to (a) biological women, and (b) people who were born men but who now have a grc.
2. It is illegal to ask to see a grc, or to ask if a person has a grc.
3. But DL can ask to see birth certificates, perfectly lawfully.
4. The only people who can have a birth certificate saying female are (a) biological women, and (b) people who were born men but now have a grc, ie the very people DL wants to let into their female changing rooms.
5. The birth certificate won’t say whether the person has a grc. It will just say ‘female’.
6. So, the policy can be implemented this way without outing anyone, as having a grc, can’t it?

Presumably this is how DL implements the system. (They will have lawyers telling them this is how to do it.)

If so, I can’t see why KA123456 thinks this will be outing. If a birth certificate says female, DL will have no idea whether the person was born female or subsequently got a grc.

I actually think this, the DL system, though better than nothing, provides women with too little privacy and dignity. My understanding is that the EA 2010 exceptions would permit DL to exclude everyone not born female from their female changing rooms, ie to exclude people with grcs too. The only issue is- how could this be policed? Does the GRA make it impossible to work the EA 2010 exceptions?

It’s a bit sad, before all the clamour to let penis-havers into our vagina-havers changing rooms, I probably wouldn’t have thought to object to grc holders being in our changing rooms. It is the experience of feeling uncomfortable and distressed and scared when alone with an obvious male in the changing room, recording on his phone, that has altered my view.

My understanding is that the EA 2010 exceptions would permit DL to exclude everyone not born female from their female changing rooms

Only if it’s a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, which legally isn’t a black and white issue.

I highly doubt your statement is true about most trans women not having surgery

It is. Perhaps you should do some research? It's a tiny percentage even according to trans organisations.

Don’t think this poll is going quite to plan...

I would refer everyone to Bunbury's seminal work, Sudden Appearances.

Women require single sex changing rooms in gyms for reasons of privacy, dignity and safety. End of. Emotional blackmail does not negate these requirements.

If others require private space for different reasons, this has nothing to do with women and should not impact upon women's needs.

When I give blood they have to test it in the females tester

Can I ask what you mean by this?

Pleased to see your arrival on this thread Bowlofbabelfish.

It's fun over at TRA twitter today. They're imagining all sorts of ways to get their penises in the women's changing rooms.

And Harrop - kind of proving the point that Man Friday set out to prove over a year ago - that allowing people to self ID into changing rooms is open to abuse. If Dr Harrop showed his birth cert, it would say male, and it would be off to the male changing rooms with you, old chum.

"Are there any issues with doing that? I thought women who had been pregnant couldn’t give blood to men?"

There was a study in the Netherlands from 2005 to 2015, covering 6 hospitals and around 31,000 patients. There is a condition called Transfusion related acute lung injury (TRALI), and it is linked to the antibodies which mothers make when they are pregnant.
The problem is that TRALI, usually occurs shortly after a transfusion, and the increased deaths of males receiving pregnant female blood were happening after 3 years.

time.com/4987922/blood-donations-transfusions-pregnant-women/

www.livescience.com/60702-blood-transfusions-women-men.html

Virgin say that they are gender identity segregated and not sex segregated

twitter.com/VirginActiveUK/status/1105116565119385601

Virgin Active UK
‏*@VirginActiveUK*
Replying to @StaceyFurUK
Inclusivity for all of our members is important to us and we’d always look to ensure that our members can access the facilities that correspond to their gender identity. NJ

Urgh what absolute wankers Virgin are. So basically women could be getting undressed with any old man who feels like it? So glad I’m not a member

Inclusivity for all of our members is important to us

Clearly not, as allowing males into female areas actually excludes many females

But nevermind, those are just the cunty females. Bow to the bepenised ones to show how inclusive you are!

Never have understood why an extra unisex option is not a good solution. But its horrendous to even bring up apparently.

Free market then. Transwomen join Virgin and those less happy with the idea of sending their daughters off to change in a changing room that may include people who self-ID as women though look nothing like, join DL.

My own experience is of Better being unwilling to enforce sex segregation in communal changing rooms in the Central London leisure centre I used to belong to. In this case women with burkas taking their teenage sons into the women's changing rooms to change for swimming. (no cubicles.) I could appreciate the cultural issues lying behind their unwillingness to allow their sons to change with unknown men, but I felt uncomfortable with teenage boys staring at me and other women - and they did. I would feel equally uncomfortable if the same happened with someone who looked like a man. I now belong to another gym which, though more expensive, offers both a communal changing room and a small number of separate cubicles.

What is it with these young transwomen that they feel they can dictate where MY boundaries should be? Do they really not get that aspect of femininity.

It all boils down to the transwomen are women mantra.

Once that is debunked - as itsallgoingtobefine did so well upthread - it all falls apart. It's a house of cards.

TRAs know it's a house of cards, which is why the TWAW mantra and "no debate" is enforced so aggressively.

I'm a member of David Lloyd, and my DD is on my membership. I'm very pleased that males cannot self-identify in the women's changing room - they are all open-plan - the shower doors are practically transparent (not completely see-through, but you could see if one was occupied) and have no locks on. Which is fine, as long as it's strictly women-only.

I'm not completely happy with GRC transwomen being allowed in tbh - for the reason above - but hey, it's better than nothing. Not many tranwomen do have GRCs - and at least you know that they have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and have "lived as a woman" for 2 yrs.

*If self ID becomes law, of course, all this becomes meaningless. Any male can self declare to get a GRC.

Trans women are still women, regardless of what you may think. When I give blood they have to test it in the females tester, I still have to have breast screening like any other women. The only difference is I don’t have periods. That doesn’t make me any less of a women, just like biological women without overies.

Trans women are not women, they are trans women.
There is no reason I can think of that your blood would be tested in the female tester, as it's not female blood.
You haver ot have breast screening because the cross-sex hormones put you at higher risk for some cancers.
I personally find it highly offensive that you think you're the same as a woman with no ovaries, because you really are not.

My view is that a gender recognition certificate creates a legal fiction and causes more problems. Especially if we cannot be sure that that person has had any surgery.

They are therefore pretty meaningless and I think the whole things should be repealed and done away with

Needmoresleep these are difficult situations and is another advantage of the 'village' style changing our own pool have. Toilets are single sex and I would prefer showers to be as well. Obviously some don't feel comfortable with this either so its free market like you say. Sad if leisure places become a market on changing facilities however.