David Lloyd changing room policy in Huffpost

[Dinneratbreadsticks]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-lloyd-trans-access-gym_uk_5c825491e4b0d9361626ec6c

Leading UK gym chain David Lloyd does not permit trans people to use changing rooms in line with the gender they identify with, unless they can produce a gender recognition certificate.

In a HuffPost UK analysis of several national gym chains and their policies on changing rooms – including Nuffield Health, PureGym, Everyone Active, EasyGym, The Gym Group and Virgin Active – David Lloyd was the only one to require this documentation from a trans person wishing to use the changing room for their identified gender.

I do visit a (not DL ) gym quiet late a night, the changing rooms are often empty,

I've no idea how to handle the situation if there's a penis person in there with me, how do I know if they are a benign TW or a voyeuristic man trying it on. This would make me consider swapping to DL when my contract is up.

I get stricter rules and I think it's good but question.
You don't have to have had surgery to get a GRC and some people have had surgery and don't have a GRC. So in there rules a trans man who's had surgery but dosent have a GRC would have to be in female changing room then what would happen?
Just think they can't ever have blanket rules.

I disagree that because they don't have to produce a GRC then we effectively have self id. If someone declares that they have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment you are under no obligation to believe them. You believe they are a voyeur in a frock. Then what?

Shit! Does your rule mean that trans men with beards and full of testosterone use the ladies’ changing rooms? That means that other men will also try it on, they only have to claim they’re trans and have no GRC. You don’t take women’s safety very seriously, do you?

One of the replies on the IWD post^

They think they are so clever with this gotcha don't they

However, if its a choice between a masculine woman (even if she has had a bit of T so looks male, though not many transmen 'pass') and a..male, I would chose the woman all day long. I highly suspect a transman who actually passes would use the blokes though. Up to them, and up ti blokes to voice concerns if they are concerned.

The GRC is no longer relevant. It was always just a handy political fix and legal fiction.
It does not matter how men choose to present themselves, what they wear etc. Have at it, men - fill yer boots.

Men are not women.

Women's facilities, sports, roles in sensitive occupations - such as health care professionals, carers, hospital wards, services for survivors of violence committed by men, survivors of sexual violence committed by men, hostels for women, Girl Guides etc etc etc -

No men.

Single-sex. Girls and women-only. No men. Men are not women.

Vixxxy

I asked that very question on MN not long ago and the prevailing view was transmen have to be prepared to get challenged in womens spaces but this is preferable to an actual man getting free reign. We'll see if this scenario crops up with DL though.

I'm a DL member and have been for 12 years. I am so absolutely reassured by this policy that they are doing their utmost for member privacy.

It takes very exceptional circumstances for men to be genuninely mistaken for women, or for women to be genuinely mistaken for men.

Most people can spot, immediately and accurately, what sex another person is, regardless of the other person's sex-stereotype presentation.

Hell, even small children can distinguish. And even animals - dogs, cats, horses, cattle, sheep, goats etc! All can spot between female human and male human!

So if it's illegal to ask for a GRC then what's the point of the policy?

It's not illegal to ask for a GRC. But insisting that a GRC is the only way to prove someone's qualification to use an area (rather than, say, a birth certificate) would be considered unreasonable by the courts in most cases.

Jacky Holyoak

What is "gender dysphoria"? What is the root cause of such a condition?

It seems to be a condition claimed by adult heterosexual males and yet never seems to be a condition claimed by adult heterosexual females.

My understanding of gender dysphoria is that some people feel that their bodies exhibit the sex characteristics of the "wrong" sex and want them not to exhibit those sex characteristics and, in general, want them to exhibit the characteristics of the opposite sex. They feel like they aren't or shouldn't be the sex they were born as. Their bodies distress them and they are unable to come to terms with their physical reality and what that means for them in terms of how society sees them. There are other forms of body dysphoria, though they seem to be even less common than gender dysphoria.

I'm assuming, given FWR is basically gender critical that by "adult heterosexual females" you mean biological women who are sexually attracted to biological men. I'm not clear why you think someone's sexuality is a key component of whether or not someone has dysphoria, which is about a feeling that your own body is wrong to be the sex it is. So I'm not clear why hetero- or homo- sexuality is relevant, but...

Even the link you provided a few posts later says:
The first type [of gender dysphoria] ^—childhood-onset gender
dysphoria—definitely occurs in both biological boys and girls.^

There is no indication that childhood-onset gender dysphoria is particularly correlated with homosexuality in women, though the article claims it is in men.

I fear gyms are going to be a new battle ground for pile ons. I hope they are ready for it.

BoomBoomsCousin

Have a listen:

vixxxy I think it is a good gotcha actually.

If we accept transmen have access to women’s spaces, even if they look like men (regardless of the degree of passing-ness), then what is to stop men claiming they are actually transmen from accessing the same spaces?

I’d be happy to share with transmen given they are biological women but when it comes to social norms about who is allowed in women’s spaces, the fact that there are transmen like buck angel, does make it tricky.

There's no perfect solution - you're always going to find people who try work the system, no matter what that system is. Mostly because no matter what you do, there's always a man somewhere (or several men) who will want to breach boundaries. Just have to identify the most sensible one which makes most sense for most people and with least opportunity and likelihood for exploitation I guess.

Glad that David Lloyd have clarified their policy. I have wondered. The one I go to for women has one large open changing area that is semi divided into two by a bank of lockers.

There is one cubicle only, between the two sides of the open area. It’s big enough for one family. That means you have to walk through open changing to get to it whether you come from main door or from the other side (swimming pool/showers).

So if they wanted to create a “third area” so that there were private cubicles, they would have to completely rip out and remodel the changing areas.

In ours it would just be a matter of renaming the family changing, though I don't know how busy that gets.

Agreed there’s no perfect solution (although third spaces would solve a lot of issues) and I’d prefer to stick to stick to sex segregated if there were only two spaces/rooms available.

Look who’s off to advance the cause

There is a lot of crap on Twitter about the relevant equality law. People like Tara Hewitt seem to believe the Equality Act requires gyms to let everyone use the changing room of their chosen gender. Total bullshit and I’m sick of people getting away with it. Stephanie Hayden has claimed almost all mainstream lawyers think this?! I doubt any credible equality lawyer thinks this, or if they do they will think it in the context of it being at best a grey area.

The law is different for those with a GRC but even they can be excluded if a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, which isn’t a black and white issue legally.

Stonewall have been parroting out this lie and it has caught on. Of course they can campaign to change the law but it’s fucking disgraceful for them to lie about what it currently is.

Jacky I don't have an hour of my spare life to listen to a video I have no particular reason to think is a good source of information. Does it contradict the article you linked to, and if so, how?

As a young Transgender women, this whole debate saddens me. I live my life like any naturally born women. Nobody I work with knows my history and neither do most of my friends.
The fact that David Lloyd think it’s acceptable to bring a policy like this into place is utterly vile.
Firstly, the amount of trans men and women that live in the UK is at an all time high, the likely hood of most people seeing a trans man or women is highly unlikely. That brings me onto why I find this decision so outdated, older trans women are what most people think about when you think of trans people, they don’t think of people like Carman Carara or Paris Lees for example (look them up if you don’t know them). Older trans people especially have generally lived much longer surpressed lives in their birth gender, desperately trying to hide the truth from family and friends for much longer, because of this their features are much more defined towards their birth gender. This is much more apparent for trans women because male birth features are much more apparent than a females birth features.

That then highlights the issue with this rule. I would not feel safe changing in a room full of men and I’m sure all the women posting that this is good would most certainly not feel safe with a trans man in their changing room.

Finally to clear things up. A GRC is not easy to get, not easy at all! It took me six months of stressful fighting to get one. I even had GRS and still it was so difficult. To those that think they give them out willy nilly (excuse the pun), they don’t.
Also, passports can be changed without a GRC, you just need a letter from your GP.

Hi ka, as you have a GRC you could change in the women’s changing rooms at David Lloyd.

I would not feel safe changing in a room full of men

Can I ask why?

I would not feel safe changing in a room full of men and I’m sure all the women posting that this is good would most certainly not feel safe with a trans man in their changing room

I would not feel safe with any male in the changing room, regardless of gender identity. I am perfectly happy changing with females. I commend David Lloyd for bringing in this policy and I’m horrified other gyms expect women to put up with males in their changing spaces. It’s disgusting.

My GRC is besides the point. Why should I have to out myself to some random people in a gym when I live my daily life as a women.

@EweSurname
Would you be comfortable changing in a room full of men?

@JessicaWakefieldSVH
Likewise but would you feel safe with a transgender man in your changing room?