David Lloyd changing room policy in Huffpost

[Dinneratbreadsticks]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-lloyd-trans-access-gym_uk_5c825491e4b0d9361626ec6c

Leading UK gym chain David Lloyd does not permit trans people to use changing rooms in line with the gender they identify with, unless they can produce a gender recognition certificate.

In a HuffPost UK analysis of several national gym chains and their policies on changing rooms – including Nuffield Health, PureGym, Everyone Active, EasyGym, The Gym Group and Virgin Active – David Lloyd was the only one to require this documentation from a trans person wishing to use the changing room for their identified gender.

I do visit a (not DL ) gym quiet late a night, the changing rooms are often empty,

I've no idea how to handle the situation if there's a penis person in there with me, how do I know if they are a benign TW or a voyeuristic man trying it on. This would make me consider swapping to DL when my contract is up.

I wouldn’t be comfortable changing with any man, let alone a room full.

But why then is my wish to avoid men ignored in favour of a transwoman’s wish to avoid men? Transwomen, regardless of gender identity, are still biological men and if you’re not even in favour of documentation being asked for, then any man can access women’s spaces by claiming to be trans.

Do you not have any empathy for women in this situation?

I’m comfortable sharing a female changing room with females, regardless of gender identity or the absence of one, as I said. I don’t think any males with or without a GRC should invade female spaces, but the DL policy is better than most.

ka

Given you’ve had the surgery I expect a lot of women would be happy with you in the women’s.

David Lloyd also provide gender neutral facilities so you could use those if you don’t want to “out yourself”.

However do you accept that your wishes and needs are only one part of the picture and that we also need to consider how natal women feel about trans women - many of whom retain male anatomy - being in the changing rooms? Or do you think it’s as simple as you want to change there so should be able to regardless of if it affects anyone else?

If it’s the former I am very happy to explain in more detail how as a rape victim I would have at one point felt very frightened by getting changed in front of someone with male anatomy - not because I think they’re a rapist (nor are most men) but because it’s a trigger.

Given you’ve had the surgery I expect a lot of women would be happy with you in the women’s. But not all, I wouldn’t. So the policy still ignores the wishes of some females, which is wrong.

Surely the easiest solution is for gyms, pools etc to have a small third changing area for those who don't fit into neat categories whether that's a single dad and his daughters or transgender people - pretty sure the local leisure centre has this already. It's happened to me years ago (long before the change in the law) at a hotel pool and its quite uncomfortable even though she/he was polite and no threat (busy changing room and private cubicles were full). I think we can have sensible solutions rather than bigotry, I do get why anyone wants to mutilate themselves but my daughter has friends who are transitioning now, they are people with feelings too.

a small third changing area many do, I believe DL do also and it seems like the best solution to suit everyone. I think Male and female should remain that way.

All the DL I have been to have a mixed changing area with separate cubicles.

EweSurname
Trans women are still women, regardless of what you may think. When I give blood they have to test it in the females tester, I still have to have breast screening like any other women. The only difference is I don’t have periods. That doesn’t make me any less of a women, just like biological women without overies. Describing myself as a transgender women earlier is only something I’ve done in reference to the thread. I’d never normally do it.
I have empathy yes but trans people do not care what you do whilst changing, regardless of being male or female, we just want to get changed. We are only human. I don’t want to be treated like anything less than that because of something I’ve gone through in life.

JessicaWakefieldSVH
Sorry, I misinterpreted what you’d said. I assume the use of the word “males” is in reference to actual men in the changing rooms.

Wow just wow

trans people do not care what you do whilst changing

Do you speak for every Transwoman then?

Would you say this is true of a transwoman like Karen White?

If not then you have to admit this is open to abuse.

We are only human. I don’t want to be treated like anything less than that because of something I’ve gone through in life.

Men are also human are they not?

In what way is treating you as male, the same as you being less than human?

Oh God. Here we go. Lashings of womenish essence all around.

Lols all the lols

That doesn’t make me any less of a women

You are Male and I am offended you’ve come to a feminist board to insult us by saying only the absence of a period is the difference between a male transwoman and actual women. You are not being treated ‘less than human’, you are regarded as male for the purpose of sex separated spaces. Your desires do not come before women’s rights to set boundaries.

Males includes transwomen, who will always be male regardless of gender identity. I am only comfortable sharing changing rooms with human females, not males which includes men and transwomen.

Agree with everything Jessica says.

I have empathy yes but trans people do not care what you do whilst changing

It isn’t about trans people, it is about the needs and feelings of females who do not wish to compromise and change with males.

Mctufty

I assume after reading your opening sentence that most people’s issues is pre-op trans people?
It’s not really crossed my mind about that. I would however say that from my own experience, I couldn’t think of doing anything that may embarrass me, I hated that part of me, every time I saw it I wanted to kill myself, every day was torture for me. From when I started my transition to when I had my surgery I wouldn’t remove my clothes for anyone, I wouldn’t do anything where any part of my body was on show. It was the hardest few years of my life and as I say, going to the gym and being naked in front of people couldn’t be any less appealing to me back then.

I highly doubt your statement is true about most trans women not having surgery. But I do understand women not wanting to change with someone that’s pre op. Thinking back, I was going to the gym with my friend before I had my surgery. I most certainly wouldn’t get naked but I’d change my top and go home for a shower.

Sorry to hear about that as well. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone and can understand that. As I say said in the last paragraph, it didn’t really occur to me about a trans person changing fully naked. It’s nothing that would cross my mind when pre op.

According to GIRES, 85% of trans people do not have surgery.

Even if they do, that does not make you female and females know it. I am not comfortable with pre or post op males in my changing room. It would cause me extreme anxiety and trigger memories that are traumatic. I don’t get changed in front of my brother either.

Oh hurray. Have we really wheeled back to women with specific and often difficult gynecological issues are the same as male bodied people who have male reproductive systems but feel very woman? Because that's never hugely insensitive and offensive, is it?

A link below

“Scientifically speaking, transgender men are not biological men and transgender women are not biological women. The claims to the contrary are not supported by a scintilla of scientific evidence,” explains Mayer.

Or, as Princeton philosopher Robert P. George put it, “Changing sexes is a metaphysical impossibility because it is a biological impossibility.”

Think about the young girls, teens and women who also have reasons to feel uncomfortable and traumatised about their own bodies, and how having males seeing their bodies can be traumatic and concerning for them.

The only solution that maintains dignity for all, is a third space.

I hate being cranky with young people but Ka, I'm sorry, being a woman is about so much more than just a feeling, breast screenings and periods. This is so offensively reductive.

Trans women are still women, regardless of what you may think

Trans women are biologically male. This is not what "we" think. It is not a matter of opinion. It is scientific fact.

When I give blood they have to test it in the females tester

No they don't. They do it as a courtesy.

I still have to have breast screening like any other women.

But not because you are a women, again a courtesy, or because you are deemed higher risk because of the cross sex hormones.

The only difference is I don’t have periods.

No. That is not the only difference. Every cell in your body is male.

Biological women are always biologically women. Female and male are at the most fundamental level determined by chromosomes. No female has male chromosomes and vice versa (excepting some rare disorders which are irrelevant here).

I have empathy yes but trans people do not care what you do whilst changing, regardless of being male or female, we just want to get changed

You have previously stated that you would feel uncomfortable in a changing room with males. This is exactly how most women feel. As transwomen are male they should also not be in women's changing rooms. They should understand that as they are male they make women feel uncomfortable. Women just want to get changed, without any males present no matter how they identify.

I don’t want to be treated like anything less than that because of something I’ve gone through in life.

No one here sees.you as lesser. As you are.biologcally male however there are some circumstances in which it is not appropriate for you to be "treated as a woman". Women are not lesser than men, or vice.versa. They are just different.

Women are not lesser than men, or vice.versa. They are just different.

This is really important.

No one here sees.you as lesser. As you are.biologcally male however there are some circumstances in which it is not appropriate for you to be "treated as a woman". Women are not lesser than men, or vice.versa. They are just different.

Yes. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being different, but those differences are very significant and cannot be ignored.