David Lloyd changing room policy in Huffpost

[Dinneratbreadsticks]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-lloyd-trans-access-gym_uk_5c825491e4b0d9361626ec6c

Leading UK gym chain David Lloyd does not permit trans people to use changing rooms in line with the gender they identify with, unless they can produce a gender recognition certificate.

In a HuffPost UK analysis of several national gym chains and their policies on changing rooms – including Nuffield Health, PureGym, Everyone Active, EasyGym, The Gym Group and Virgin Active – David Lloyd was the only one to require this documentation from a trans person wishing to use the changing room for their identified gender.

I do visit a (not DL ) gym quiet late a night, the changing rooms are often empty,

I've no idea how to handle the situation if there's a penis person in there with me, how do I know if they are a benign TW or a voyeuristic man trying it on. This would make me consider swapping to DL when my contract is up.

I'm a DL member too and I'm happy there will be no penises in my changing rooms

Except if they have a GRC. You don’t need to have had surgery to get one.

DavidDavidDavid

"So David Lloyd would be better off expressing their policy as "if it says female on your passport then you can go in the female changing room." "

No ... Lloyd could make it a condition of membership that a Birth Certificate be shown in application.

To change the sex reference on your passport no-one needs a GRC. As far as I recall, all that is required is to submit a doctor's confirmation letter [usually involves a fee like £25, as far as I know] that you have a diagnosis of so-called "gender dysphoria".

Believe it or not, the sex reference on a driving licence can be changed via a telephone call to DVLC.

I think changing the sex reference on Bank records require no proof either.

JackyHolyoake

Yes, I understand. It’s the DL policy though, so they’re not providing a sex separated space for females unfortunately.

Thanks, Jacky. Given this is a subject which stirs up a lot of heated reaction, it's surprising that DL didn't do their research and consult a lawyer, and realise that the best way to express their policy is that birth certificate sex determines which changing room, without mentioning GRCs.

JessicaWakefieldSVH

So, we need to explain the law better to Lloyd, eh?

[Although the GRA 2004 was created for circa 5000 people and about 4910 GRCs have been issued so far, to mostly males, since 2005, so it is a tiny minority of people this far.]

It is a curiosity as to how many of these males demanding access to girls' and women's spaces etc actually have a diagnosis of so-called "gender dysphoria".

The recent demand by these males for sex self-ID is to circumvent the requirement for a medical / psychiatric diagnosis.

I agree this raises further questions.

If a gym did want to have a policy that no-one with a male body could enter the women's changing room (from what you say, legal under the EA2010), how would they operate the policy? If someone says "it says female on my birth certificate" and others are saying "but you are / look male", how does one settle the dispute? Does it rely on someone saying they've seen their penis? It feels like a minefield for a gym manager to actually negotiate in practice.

DavidDavidDavid
"the best way to express their policy is that birth certificate sex determines which changing room, without mentioning GRCs."

Anyone with a GRC will know that the requirement here is to provide the Birth Certificate.

What Lloyd is saying to anyone who "transitions" is that if you haven't got a GRC [ie: evidenced via a legally viable Birth Certificate] you must expect to be directed to the facilities intended for your sex.

DavidDavidDavid

"It feels like a minefield for a gym manager to actually negotiate in practice."

Indeed ... and imagine the same scenario at a domestic violence refuge for women and children or a rape crisis centre for women and girls.

Usually, these situations place a woman in the position of having to say "No" to a male, which can be fraught with danger for the woman.

This is why we need third spaces for people who "transition" regardless of a GRC. This is the only way to keep women and children safe because of the very real risk of predatory males using "transition" for nefarious purpose. [It has already happened.]

Single sex spaces etc should mean exactly that; single-sex.

As soon as the thinking becomes "on a case-by-case basis" single-sex spaces are immediately being dismissed in favour of mixed-sex spaces and the safety, privacy and dignity of girls and women is being dismissed out of hand.

They’re fudging - it’ll cause problems down the line.
I don’t think you can ask for a GRC (so they’re utterly pointless as a public protection measure anyway.)

DL need to state that gender is irrelevant amd changjng/showering facilities are segregated by sex.

My gym membership lapsed when I was pregnant and sick. I’m not renewing it (virgin) because they won’t have Alex segregated changing. I will renew to whichever gym in my area will do this

Alex? Sex. My autocorrect will NOT write sex or sperm. Bloody thing

Bowlofbabelfish

We need to make the Exceptions in the Equality Act 2010 mandatory as the default status, to protect children and women fully.

Any male [regardless of a GRC] who wants to violate that default status must prove why it should be so.

It’s not illegal to ask to see a GRC, but it would be unreasonable to insist on a GRC as proof of legal sex since the new birth certificate should suffice and a demand to see the grc would be intrusive ( from the Women and Equalities Committee report ) . I imagine DL’s policy of separating changing rooms out by legal sex rather than biological is to avoid the nightmare situation from their staff’s perspective that DavidDavidDavid outlines. A policy that relied on checking out bodies to decide where they “fit” could also be humiliating for some intersex people and people who are gender nonconforming.

While GRCs are still rare, this is probably a reasonable compromise for a company that has to operate at a profit but wants to maintain as much privacy as it reasonably can for women.

It’s also what most people were generally OK with as a compromise to support people who suffered from gender dysphoria before the current aggressive TRA movement started trying to claim their female souls proved they were more authentic women than actual women.

Even if you accept a man can't become a woman I think in these cases its more relevant who has actually had SRS than what certificates they can produce or be required to. GRC doesn't require any physical changes so it seems a poor requirement.

BoomBoomsCousin

What is "gender dysphoria"? What is the root cause of such a condition?

It seems to be a condition claimed by adult heterosexual males and yet never seems to be a condition claimed by adult heterosexual females.

Why is that I wonder?

Bizarre line for the Huff Post to take.

What they are saying is all gyms except DL will let any Male who says he feels like a woman into the ladies’ changing room, based purely on his say so. That’s the news story.

Gender dysmorphia does exist. It’s a serious mental health issue like other types of dysmorphia such as anorexia. It does affect women as well as men. For this rare condition gendr reassignment can relieve symptoms. Many (most?) of this small community ( fewer than 5000 people ) are not the ones pushing for total inclusion, and can be happy with suitable arrangements ( so we have a gender neutral loo at work, and the women’s group was asked .. no pressure ...if the grc hold8ng woman could join which was no problem)

However most trans people claim to not have any mental disorder and seem to find it incredibly difficult to get the gender dysmorphia diagnosis that is needed to qualify for gender reassignment.

I can’t help feeling a good rule of thumb is if they’re pushing for access to women’s spaces they haven’t got any chance of gettinga grc and don’t have gender dysmorphia

MIdgebabe

Have a read of this:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Unfortunately the law as it stands is not fit for purpose, as a trans woman can have a GRC & legally use the ladies changing room, even though 80% of them keep their male genitals.....
True transsexuals would respect womens rights to safe sex segregated spaces & not venture in there. The law needs some tweaking to recognise that people cannot change sex, and men are not allowed in womens spaces. This is why it’s so bloody to refute that TWAW.

this tweet thread from Christine Burns who helped bring in the GRA

Christine Burns MBE 🧜‍♀️🦍 (@christineburns)
09/03/2019, 14:09
Just to be clear re ⁦‪*@DavidLloydUK*‬⁩ and trans people — and I’m speaking as one of the team that brought about the GRA: It is unlawful to request to see a person’s Gender Recognition Certificate as that would defeat the whole point of the GRA protecting trans people’s privacy.

Damn, sorry I can't seem to copy the thread. If are on Twitter though it states clearly what the other posters have said above. The law is effectively self id already based on this. If true there needs to be changes