Tavistock’s Experimentation with Puberty Blockers: Scrutinizing the Evidence

[Pimmsnlemonade]

www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

"To summarize, GIDS launched a study to administer experimental drugs to children suffering from gender dysphoria. Between 2010 and 2014, puberty blockers were given to 50 children. This study yielded only one published scientific article on outcomes. It showed no evidence for the effectiveness of GnRHa: there was no statistically significant difference in psychosocial functioning between the group given blockers and the group given only psychological support. In addition, there is unpublished evidence that after a year on GnRHa children reported greater self-harm, and that girls experienced more behavioural and emotional problems and expressed greater dissatisfaction with their body—so puberty blockers exacerbated gender dysphoria. Yet the study has been used to justify rolling out this drug regime to several hundred children aged under 16. Almost five years after the last patient was enrolled in the experiment, there is no evidence to substantiate Carmichael’s claim ‘that the results thus far have been positive’."

Often thought of (mistakenly) as being 'gay' - this in itself can be hurtful as it is inaccurate

The homophobia and conversion therapy is laid bare there, isn’t it?

We all know there are people who are convinced of a diagnosis and become experts in it, but clinicians hold the line and use clinical diagnostic criteria.

In the case of GD, this doesn't happen. The patients and their supporters (and the whole of the public sector they have influenced) are determining the criteria for treatment.

Adults are projecting onto children.

When is the Tavistock being shut down for breech of ethics and Mermaids embroiled in a cataclysmic scandal?

Stick the money into good old fashioned boring mental health care for children.

Essentially, if adults were better at challenging sexist binary stereotypes, a lot of children wouldn't be so confused.

Also anyone interested in researching the development of transgender narratives in relation to the Tavistock and Portman clinics needs to know about this woman

Estela V Welldon
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estela_V._Welldon

In the 1980s she published this book

Mother, Madonna, Whore: The Idealization and Denigration of Motherhood

you can "look inside" some of the book here via Amazon
hwww.<a class="break-all" href="https://amazon.co.uk/Mother-Madonna-Whore-Idealization-Denigration/dp/1855753413?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-womens-rights-3525450-Tavistock-s-Experimentation-with-Puberty-Blockers-Scrutinizing-the-Evidence" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">amazon.co.uk/Mother-Madonna-Whore-Idealization-Denigration/dp/1855753413

I have not read this book for many years, however I did find it an interesting read. The book was extremely controversial when first published as it focussed on the concept of "perverse mothering" and I can remember the author describing working with what nowadays the MSM would refer to as trans women. Welldon explores narratives in relation to fetishism and perversion in relation to these patients.

Welldon's work is as a psychiatrist working psychoanalytically around forensic issues.

Welldon wrote compellingly about women who sexually abused children. This was at a time when the subject was not covered by the press or understood. She received criticism for this.

Some of her writing was homophobic, understandably as she came from a classical Freudian perspective, now most Freudians think differently about lesbian and gay issues.

The aspect of her book that struck a cord with me, as someone who struggled with gender identity in my early 20s, was that one of the aspects of "perverse mothering" she described was that the mothers of transsexuals (in her limited experience working in a clinic focussing on forensic issues) tended to not validate their children's gender identity.

This was an issue for me. My parents very much wanted a boy and they got me, a girl. I was bullied at school for wearing boys shoes and neither of my parents validated my gender identity.

Welldon also explored Winnicott's concept of the "transitional object" (usually a teddy of comfort blanket that represents the mother to the baby or child when the mother cannot be with the child)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_object
in relation to "perverse mothering".

Welldon posits that the perverse mother is unable to relate to her child as a small person and instead treat the child as a transitional object, an object that will meet all of her needs and compensate for inadequacies in her own mothering.

This is something I can relate to re my own mother. She was constantly disappointed that I did not meet her needs and she absolutely failed to treat me as a little human being and in many ways experienced me as her property.

I can remember being excited about some concepts within the book but feeling critical of others.

I need to read this book again and I think I have one, possibly 2 copies of it. If I can find 2 copies I am happy to mail one out to a women's organisation. The book is expensive to buy. Also, for an analysis of the historical narrative a 1st edition and revised edition may be useful.

I am not promoting the book as good or bad, but I think it represents a missing link in the narrative of the transgender narrative, especially in relation to the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust.

When Weldon first wrote her book she was hailed as a pioneering specialist in the field of psychoanalytic understanding of perversions.

I think that, at that time, there was a prevalent narrative that MtF transsexuals were fetishists and perverse. Little was written about FtM transgender issues.

I can remember thinking at the time that more work needed to be done to have a more compassionate and nuanced understanding of why people feel they are "born in the wrong body".

Now it feels that the pendulum has swung very far in the opposite direction and I find it very interesting that the same organisation that Welldon worked for, the Portman, has been involved in this about turn.

Red - I don’t know when. Though I do wish children/youth mental health had better funding before it happens!

I get so bloody upset at the complaining from Mermaid parents that the Tavistock don’t act fast enough, etc. DD is starting to struggle with her mental health - she’s tier 3 CAMHS, supposed to be having monthly appointments with a psychiatrist - her last appointment was April 2018. Our trust has one part time locum. I’ve rung the duty worker 3 times this week, and gone straight to answerphone. No one’s got back to me. I do know of two local trans youth who are having monthly appointments with the psychiatrist. I know DD is not in crisis, but if left could quite possibly be. It makes me so angry.

* hoodathunkit*

women wear trousers so often it is hard to tell if a woman is in fact a transvestite. "

Where to start. Do you think dresses/skirts are compulsory for all female mermaids employees/volunteers (unless they want to be identified as transvestite). A four year old could do better.

Redtoothbrush I totally agree - good old fashioned mental healthcare is what these kids need.

This ideology is now so pernicious that sensible mental health provision for a teen who has self-diagnosed GD just isn't there.

I'm so fucking angry that this is an NHS clinic. My kid being exposed to dodgy tumblr, youtube content at a particularly vulnerable time is one thing but when the experts the only available experts are basically experimenting and fucking about with mentally unwell troubled teenagers its dystopian.

That Welldon book sounds fascinating. Both that and the Mermaids 'signs' thing have a particular resonance with me. Sadly.

My mother's comments when I was a child which stuck with me as particularly strong memories and her own childhood and relationship with her mother I'm sure could be unpicked and be very consistent with it.

I'm not sure I want to know any further on a personal level though. I'm not sure it would result in anything healthy and positive at this stage for me or anyone in my family.

And I'm aware this in itself might be rather telling. I'm sure there is an inadequacy and need for validation that exists within a few of the Mermaids activists. The Yardley case was telling to me. It wasn't about the identity of Helen Islan's child. It was about the identity of Helen Islan herself.

The more this all unravels the more uncomfortable I feel. The long term consequences are yet to play out.

I do think the breakdown of mh provision across the board is a key driver of all this. A lot of young people are suffering from untreated distress which is then via social contagion and internet propaganda being reinterpreted as gd

Presumably, most ageing ‘trans’ are males who wouldn’t have had blockers, but would’ve started cross-sex hormones in adulthood, often relatively late?

So the data for the health effects of blockers (no puberty), followed by decades of cross-sex hormones, won’t be in for a while.

*That Welldon book sounds fascinating. Both that and the Mermaids 'signs' thing have a particular resonance with me. Sadly.
*

sorry to hear that RedToothBrush

The Welldon book might be difficult to understand for those who have not been trained in psychoanalytic concepts.

I will try to find it and C&P aspect that I feel are relevant to this discourse.

It is my understand that powerful forces involved in social engineering are using mental health systems and an understanding of depth psychology to manipulate the masses and to undermine democracy.

I would recommend to any woman interested in empowering herself to try to learn about different models of psychotherapy and psychology but to regard all theory as provisional and subject to revision.

If we do not speak the languages of the people oppressing us we will not have the appropriate weaponry with which to fight them.

Hooda I am familiar with some concepts you raise, though not Welldon.

And I think your post will resonate with the discussion around naricssim and narcissistic mothers which is often mentioned on MN, though the jargon/terms are slightly different. Its so harmful to children. for your experiences. And redtoothbrush I can relate to you both.

There are clearly differences between the experiences and symptoms of girls and boys and between so called trans symtpoms, with complex causes and responses. We need to invest in MH care urgently and populate it with safe people.

Its a very necessary, more than ever I think, to understand how all these disordered characteristics interact with each other, enabling, harming, co-depending etc. How so much personality disorder and abuse is wrapped up with misogyny, and how many disordered adults are involved in this; projecting, abusing and also self harming, directly and vicariously

I do think that we need to do much more looking at how fetishes arise, eg through shaming, rejection, abuse etc, which is part of what I was getting at with my at anger at how unquestioning affirmation is dangerous in so many ways. And how not looking at all of this properly (and not tackling misogyny) just allows this huge abusive cycle to carry on.

I can't make a symbol for strength and fortitude so I will just say

Brilliant work, Hooda.

So Mermaids was set up essentially as a support group for patients and parents who were at GIDS clinic at the Portman trust.

"Some of our children have attended the Gender Identity Development Service of the Portman Trust, two of whose clinicians are in an advisory position on our Committee."

So now we have had at least two GIDS clinicians advising Mermaids? How ethical is it for NHS staff to advise lobby groups?

Gilligan - ask GIDS how many of their clinicians have had advisory positions on lobby groups like Mermaids and Gendered Intelligence?

Thanks Popchyk and plattercake :)

Also, re the internet archive
It is clear that TRA groups were very early users of the www and had their own websites quite early on

The Beaumont Society website is even earlier 1999 was the first archived page
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/19990715000000*/beaumontsociety.org.uk/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/19990715000000*/beaumontsociety.org.uk/

I have no time now to check this out but may be worth a perusal?

How ethical is it for NHS staff to advise lobby groups?

There must be guidelines surely? The British thyroid foundation work as a patient support group and charity under the The British thyroid association (of professional uk endocrinologists). They have a medical professional (a consultant) as a part of their team who helps to keep info within current official guidelines and answer member queries. They award research grants to professionals and have patient working groups contributing to any fact sheets they publish that are ultimately overseen by Gps and their medical advisors. They also contact other researchers, scientists, if pertinent, for example an expert on iodine nutrition.

Everything is published in their quarterly magazine. Fully transparent.

I imagine other patient support groups work in a similar way.

All meetings are public. Generally members attend but in my experience their open to anyone as they would hope you'd join obviously.

I don't know much about http//www.clapa.com but I know they have group picnics etc.

Again fully public.

www.clapa.com

CLAPA prioritise safeguarding as is very evident on the website

Red I think we have to think more radically- it’s not really about the Tavi. To actually protect kids (by which I mean anyone under 25) I think we need to apply properly debated democratic Parliamentary and legal oversight- beyond just applying individual doctors’ normal clinical prescribing judgement.

This is where medical and surgical interventions of this kind in children and young people currently legally sit. It’s too big a decision for individual doctors alone when there is not currently compelling evidence of medical benefit and the risks and permanent effects on the child or young person are so great.

So I think we need to lobby for parliamentary oversight setting up specific licensing and regulation of doctors in this area.

As the Tavi recent events show- clinical judgement seems to be being swayed towards politically-based ‘affirmative’ prescribing because of years of intensive lobby pressure.

So we see the NHS alleged to be rushing kids through the system because that’s what the lobby is urging them to do. Or we hear about the lobby coaching the kids to ask for blockers and hormones. When we know some of those kids will later completely desist with that identity.

The NHS clinicians are pretty much damned if they do and damned if they don’t, at the moment.

We all have an ethical interest in the care of children and young people- something so radical as taking away children and young people’s puberty, and normal mental maturation and future fertility and future sexual pleasure and sexual capacity and future skeletal development and their chance of future decent mental health... and all the rest of it... needs to be legally controlled and overseen.

A massive system-wide change in the UK will also send a signal out internationally. We have done this in response to scandals in other areas of medicine.

Like after the Alder Hey scandal of children’s organs being retained without permission in the NHS in the 80s and 90s, the Human Tissue Authority was set up. Poor practice in that space can’t happen any more. Sorted.

We are building towards a massive scandal here and I think we should be thinking now about what a new system should look like before the knee jerk government solutions get quickly plucked out of the air.

We should use these powers to shut down those commercial private practice prescribers of blockers and hormones and any surgery prescribed outside the NHS because it looks like this is prescribed outside of proper psychological support and proper follow up. These interventions are too significant to be offered without proper oversight.

This thread...amazing work and so much food for thought.

Women here are making, and will continue to make a real difference in this debate. Thank you all.